To a certain extent what Surendraji says is right.

However, we must never under estimate ourselves, and at the same time MBAs or for that matter anyone.

CAs might be knowledgable than MBAs, but thats not the only thing that counts. There are hundreds of profiles which pay more than finance profiles, and those dont require you to be knowledgable. They require you to be good speakers, listeners, emotion managers etc. When you have lunch/dinner, you cant have only rice or only dal or only vegetable. Likewise, an organisation also needs all types of people i.e. people who have knowledge, people who dont have (or have very little knowledge).
Further there are many jobs which require skill, this applies especially in companies from media, entertainment, hospitality etc sectors. In these companies, you cant expect CA or even an MBA finance to be a top paid employee. These type of companies are started and run by people who have those relvant skillsets and they would be the people who would take all the money. They would off course have to recruit CAs for book-keeping, taxation and some other work.

I would request everyone to understand and appreciate the fact, that at the very first place, besides finance, there are hundreds of other functions in a company. Those other functions cannot be handled by CAs or finance professionals only at the first place. Those functions are also big time remunerative.

We need to understand the fact, that a CA is not god, just be having knowledge of certain things you cant do everything. Even if you know everything (only god knows but still im saying this), you cant do everything because you have physical and mental limitations. So please give space to others, people from other professions. Dont try to portray as if only CAs have the right to earn more than others, and only CAs have to be the bosses and others have to report to a CA...thats never gona happen.

Surendraji, you mentioned some good points which are reasons for CAs earning less. I would like to add one more reason to it i.e. attitude. On this website itself, the Ego, ignorance of CAs and students is well visible through various forums. The attitude to disrespect other professions, see others as inferior is also clearly visible from various forum posts. I can say one thing, than an individual might have 100 qualifications, and must be the most knowledgable person, but no one would like to work with him, or accept him as a leader is he is egoistic, if he disrespects others, sees others with inferirity, and tries to boss around. Ive observed this aspect very well even in my practical experiences with many CAs and students. Thats one of the reasons I have written many posts and articles highlighting these matters which damper our own growth and standing in the industry.

Good Packages and Profiles a function of various things like communiction skills, knowledge, patience, perseverance, character etc.

A buffet which gets a very high price is not the one which only serves great food, but its a buffet which serves great food with good ambience, hospitality, hygiene, enough parking space, vareity of items etc. And not to forget, these buffet's are marketed well, using their own stuff...they wouldnt compare with other buffets, disrespect them and show that they are of great worth.

There are also buffet's which get very high price without great food, but then other things like hospitality, great ambience, hygiene etc cover up for food...and they still manage to do well.

CA is just great food, it is neither marketed well, nor served properly, nor is there any hospitality.
 At times, even the great food tastes pathetic, especially when it is not cooked well...you see this phenomena in CA profession many times due to the problem of dummy articleship, or regular articleship with poor exposure to practical aspects of industry.

In MBA cases, especially the ones from top bschools, the criteria is perfectly met. When it comes to other lower rung bschools, the food becomes good but not great, however, the the other things like marketing, hospitality, ambience and other factors take care of everything for them and they still perform get a better price than top CAs (thats what we saw in the newspaper article).

wel  said.

Dear Krunal,

Really good explanations on your part. 

I admire your presentations. 

The matter was drawn up by Economic Times which compared one profession with other.

Nobody has right to downgrade anyone. 

I fully agree with your views. 

Whatever I said, was for self-respect of CA profession. Whatever has been written in Economic Times is far from facts although it is a leading newspaper of country.

A try to give negative effect by some people in the mindset of public should be discouraged immediately.

Each work has its own importance. Even a peon's work is important. If he doesn't come for two days, we can feel what  happens to our office routine work.

Thanks for your nice views again.

Well i endorse krunal's view; one thing a CA article, who will become CA in practise in future, likely to emulate is ARROGANCE, EGO.

Sir, if we twist ur logic; then it might mean; ICAI is there to do social service for the downtrodden; that's why the fees as well as ICAI training, education is below par than elite MBAs.

I think that in IIM,IIT there are quotas for SC,ST,OBC ( system,which i don't like) ; but still its quality hasn't decreased. In fact; all elite b-schools have quota system.

Just having thousands of pages of secs,laws doesn't make the course the best. Compare that with CPA-us. It has only 4 papers.More people in the world go for that. Have you heard any accountant from countries who have been coaxed by icai to make treaties, come and become members of ICAI. They would rather do CPA. Brkaar main uttam ko sab free membership dediyaa.agar denaa hi thaa; tn manoharan ko detey.

And i also endorse one friend's view of making specialisations in final; and but that's not possible because of lack of stable, fully focused administrators. All of us , we know that our top-body is run by members from practice; who are mostly biased, self-centred, and are working there for their vested interests. Students and welfare of the profession comes last for them. TELL ME CAN SEBI BE RUN BY STOCK BROKERS?

Krunal bhaisaab, u r marvellous. Kyaa poll kholi hain CA kii! ATTITUDE IS SURELY A CANCER FOR CA AND CA STUDENTS. bY ATTITUDE; I AM SURE U MEAN ARROGANCE, AND EGO.

and what about people getting 70 lacs; and icai blowing trumpets about that; i might not open the doors of secrets here. But you will find out ludicrous financial constraints that you can't sent more than XX lacs to ur home nations; dangerous job locations, etc.

When will icai improve and behave like unselfish body?

Kutte ki duum sidhi ho sakti hain,

Rakesh roshan ke sirr mein baal aa sakti hain;

Pritaam gaana khud compose kar sakta hain;

parr icai kabhi sudharr nahi saktaa.

Dear Jose, 

I agree on many points raised by you.

But let's go into the history. CAs were known only for accounting and auditing. One major point is that a practising CA  is hardly engaged in auditing for more than 3-4 months. Government Audits and other types of audits are at the mercy of governing bodies. Further; there are restrictions on number of audits which restriction is not in  any  other  professions. Does not it look surprising that a member is known as auditor but his acitivites are restricted ?

So despite one CA is capable enough to do more audits; he is restricted to act in which he is master. Why CAs had to think only about job ? Due to this reason only. CA profession gives both possible avenues - practice and job. Choose whatever you want. Further; you can switch your area of practice whenever you want. This makes this profession unique one which is not possible in other professions. 

Self respect and Ego are altogether different.  Eco. Times unnecessarily tried to compare CAs with MBAs. If one says MBAs are good then what happened to them in the recession period ? Why hudnreds of banks failed in US recently although they were Master in Finace. Can you tell the reason ? If you really wish to share some knowledge; try to explain it.   Didn't they employed qualified MBAs from reputed institutions ? Surprisingly,  this happened in US for which  we all "assume" that US is one the best in Management courses.  

Let new Direct Tax Code, IFRS, Goods and Service Tax come into force. In my opinion; more than four times of number of CAs will be required what is available now.  I am sure; even CA students who pursued practical training only,  would be in high demand.  CA institute is still trying hard to capture other opportunities. Whatever is published in CA journal two years before; comes true when one refer the same  in present.  

MBA profession emerged because of opening several specialized branches in the Management. The institute has also opened several branches : ISA, DIRM etc. There are advanced programs in Management and Taxation already opened by the Institute years ago which most of  students don't try to know. Those who see the syallabus and pattern of studies of these courses; only 1-2%  students "dare" to go for these    

Here one should not expect that Institute will do certain things for members. From members; Institute has been formed. Members are brand ambassadors of the Institute. They have to perform to prove their identities. If they are unable to adapt changed circumstances; immediately they go out from the market. Why Seniors CAs are not in demand and freshers are in demand ? You will not see such a position in any other profession that seniors are not preferred. The reason is many senior CAs could not swith their attention to computerization specially in non-metro cities.

Those who take care of updation according to changed scenario; they are in a win-win position. See the strategy of the Institute when number of students wish to go for CA which were not preferred by them just four years ago.  

So it makes sense to focus on the area in which you are working. 

One more point - 

In Surat, I have seen that "all" Diamond merchants sell their diamonds on credit and Scrap Dealers sell their goods in cash.  Every year more than 10 diamond merchant become insolvent. It never came to notice that one Scrap Dealer has become insolvent.  This happens because Diamonds merchants don't have sense what Scrap Dealers have. Both goods are non-perishable. Now it is clear what is required to do business without risk. 

Do you think that Scrap Dealer has to go for any Management Qualification so that he can manage the risk ? 

Originally posted by : CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA
	Dear Jose,    I agree on many points raised by you.   But let's go into the history. CAs were known only for accounting and auditing. One major point is that a practising CA  is hardly engaged in auditing for more than 3-4 months. Government Audits and other types of audits are at the mercy of governing bodies. Further; there are restrictions on number of audits which restriction is not in  any  other  professions. Does not it look surprising that a member is known as auditor but his acitivites are restricted ?   So despite one CA is capable enough to do more audits; he is restricted to act in which he is master. Why CAs had to think only about job ? Due to this reason only. CA profession gives both possible avenues - practice and job. Choose whatever you want. Further; you can switch your area of practice whenever you want. This makes this profession unique one which is not possible in other professions.    Self respect and Ego are altogether different.  Eco. Times unnecessarily tried to compare CAs with MBAs. If one says MBAs are good then what happened to them in the recession period ? Why hudnreds of banks failed in US recently although they were Master in Finace. Can you tell the reason ? If you really wish to share some knowledge; try to explain it.   Didn't they employed qualified MBAs from reputed institutions ? Surprisingly,  this happened in US for which  we all "assume" that US is one the best in Management courses.     Let new Direct Tax Code, IFRS, Goods and Service Tax come into force. In my opinion; more than four times of number of CAs will be required what is available now.  I am sure; even CA students who pursued practical training only,  would be in high demand.  CA institute is still trying hard to capture other opportunities. Whatever is published in CA journal two years before; comes true when one refer the same  in present.     MBA profession emerged because of opening several specialized branches in the Management. The institute has also opened several branches : ISA, DIRM etc. There are advanced programs in Management and Taxation already opened by the Institute years ago which most of  students don't try to know. Those who see the syallabus and pattern of studies of these courses; only 1-2%  students "dare" to go for these       Here one should not expect that Institute will do certain things for members. From members; Institute has been formed. Members are brand ambassadors of the Institute. They have to perform to prove their identities. If they are unable to adapt changed circumstances; immediately they go out from the market. Why Seniors CAs are not in demand and freshers are in demand ? You will not see such a position in any other profession that seniors are not preferred. The reason is many senior CAs could not swith their attention to computerization specially in non-metro cities.   Those who take care of updation according to changed scenario; they are in a win-win position. See the strategy of the Institute when number of students wish to go for CA which were not preferred by them just four years ago.     So it makes sense to focus on the area in which you are working.    One more point -    In Surat, I have seen that "all" Diamond merchants sell their diamonds on credit and Scrap Dealers sell their goods in cash.  Every year more than 10 diamond merchant become insolvent. It never came to notice that one Scrap Dealer has become insolvent.  This happens because Diamonds merchants don't have sense what Scrap Dealers have. Both goods are non-perishable. Now it is clear what is required to do business without risk.    Do you think that Scrap Dealer has to go for any Management Qualification so that he can manage the risk ?

May be USA suffered; because they didn't hire CAs from ICAI. Their MBAs and CPAs may not have knowledge like icai CAs.

And now i know why  students are treated like mangy canines by our institute. IF members can't expect much from icai; toh hum toh even votebank nahi hain.

MAy be students are not going for the courses like ISA,DIRM because ICAI has not properly raised awareness about the programmes and told us how that will help us move the corporate ladder; and why we should give time for such  courses rather than go for CFA,CPA,MBA, others.????????

And some of such courses are having articleship again. Well, sir, you must have heard "once bitten , twice shy". I am sure; this time articleship wont be so less-paying, more time consuming and less productive (jo training denge; woh bade CA hi honge), and no chintaa for transfer because our CA makes us to prepare tea for clients.

But even then ; after 3-4 years of 1000pm meagre stipend and tonnes of abuses at the hands of CA; students are in family pressure too to either take up jobs ; or go for higher , "conventional", courses.

And regarding certificate programmes; i dunno whether recruiters pay much attention to that! And as a student itself, we have seen how ICAI conducts ITT. And aNOTHER BIG PROBLEM IS THE UNAVAILABILTY OF STUDYING THOSE POST-QUALI. AT MANY CITIES."

The only course; that interests me from them; is the one of SAP,ERP. But i wont jump into a well of fire; without doing fullttoooo investigation with past students; how icai has done them.

So long, chowwww.

Economic Times told about qualified members only. 

In my opinion; it is strange that most of the students are doing articleship with practising chartered accountants but still think for JOB only. (What does it mean - they are more brilliant than the practising members ?)  

Ask a big chartered accountancy firm; how they established themselves. You will find the answer that they grew because they had passion towards the profession and did all the "unwanted job" which they never liked.  My boss told me that in first year he earned only Rs.2,000 (in 1979). In  1985-1987;  he was number one in the city in VDIS cases. Now he is engaged only in Wealth Tax Cases.  So you have to change your strategy according to the time. 

In one of the forum - I have narrated that it is strange that a professional student thinks to serve someone despite having all the opportunities in the profession.  It means still they have same mentality which we had  at pre-indepent India.  At that time; people used to pass matriculation and "join" English Government. They helped them to grow here. Since we are in advanced stage now; so many  of us think that joining   Multinationals  is one of the best career. (Just try to think; what I want to say). 

The above writing is not to discourage who are in service but to "encourage" members to do practice. There is a lot of difference between a practice and a job. I have both types of experience. If one has expertise in equity research; I am sure he will never do service at least after 4-5 years.  If  a person is ready to  learn  adopting "YA ESH SUPTESHU JAGRUTI" and  can apply economics, accountancy, finance, management, budget analysis simultaneously; surely one can make good profits within one year. 

We talked about good show of Management  by Indians. Don't forget that due to UNMANAGED FOREIGN EXCHANGE EXPOSURE the government had to interfere with provisions of AS-11. Many big Indian companies; (mis)managed  their foreign exposure because they could not understand what happened in the World and how it can affect them.  

It is expected from a CA student that he himself is in a position to guide himself. If someone is not in a position to understand the various typicalities of the course and  doesn't know its source; then definitely he will find himself in trouble - not only at the time of training but also after passing CA.  After certain years;  he will automatically learn; where he commits different mistakes ----- and thenafter swear not to repeat it. 

Basically; a CA is required to give his opinion on the Financial Statements when he is engaged in auditing. BUT NOW-A-DAYS; IT IS JUST A PART OF HIS PROFESSION. What varieties of job; he can do in minutes; can never be expected from any other profession. Due to this; the things become so easy for the client that he is relieved not only from the problem; but also forgets to pay for it.    Why ? Because many times he gives advice on telephone the value of which is never paid by the client.

We have discussed a lot about CA Career. I invite more suggestions from the learned members or students to focus on the issue HOW MBAs are better - by giving practical examples.  I hope; those who are doing or who did both the qualifications; can  narrate better.  

The purpose of the discussion is to upgrade our knowledge and to overcome our deficiencies. The discussion is not towards downgrading someone but I have written  whatever I have noticed. 

What Surendra Sir mentioned is right - Direct Tax Code, IFRS, Goods and Service Tax coming into force would drive demand by more than four times of number of CAs.

It is indeed true, that companies in US who got bankrupt did recruit MBAs. But we cant blame MBAs only, there were CPAs, the auditors themselves and off course the system as a whole of financial reporting. Thats quite a different issue from what we are discussing. There are great examples of MBAs who have established big empires (a few examples can be seen in this book - "Stay Foolish, Stay Hungry").  At the same time you will find big empires by CAs, dropouts, 4th std pass people also. Thats a different issue.

I dont think there is any doubt that CAs are recruited big time in big 4's audit, tax departments. Even in the finance department of companies CAs are dominant. But outside accounting, auditing and taxation the CA profession isnt that strong, which is quite obvious because thats not the purpose ICAI was established for. However, even outside these areas, you will find CAs, but that boils down to the individual and not the CA course as such. I am aware of CAs who have started restaurants, which many dropouts do, the industry is quite big and all are doing EQUALLY well. In that case, ICAI or CA course doesnt come to picture. I am also aware of a CA who has started a computer education institute, thats doing great, infact that industry is quite big and to the extent i know all the computer education institutes nearby this one are doing equally well, even here the ICAI and CA course doesnt come into picture. None of these activities are such which exclusively only CAs can do or are capable of doing. But surely thats not the case for auditing, taxation fields.

The main issue in discussion was about the ET article. It was surely a bit away of the reality. It did mention some facts but at the same time mentioned things which dont hold true in practical world as far as CAs and even MBAs are concerned.

Jose - many of us have agreed to your points, including many senior members like Surendraji. As of today, there is very little we can do about it. All that we can do is find out where we lack and discuss how we can fill those gaps if there are any. I would just say one thing, that in life, in the disguise of not having many things, we forget to enjoy and make the most of what we have. That should not happen. Thats why, we must make the most of whatever is there, however little it might be. At the same time, wish good for us and for all, hope for a change and whenever possible be the change you want to see.

Dear Krunal, 

Your posting is excellent.

Many times I have written that Learning is better than Qualification. It means only qualification will not work. But it does not mean than one should not go for qualification. Each one adds value in your career. 

What misconception in student is - by qualification only they will make good career.

I also thank Jose because his presentation is different - It's different - like tomato-chilly sauce.

@ CA Surendra..... .

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The reason for charging low cannot be even imagined to the cost of education being low. The cost of education has no relevance whatso ever to ca's being paid less than their MBA counterparts. Every professional is a price taker, not a price maker. The salaries purely depend on skill sets and demand and supply, nothing else ever matters...... 

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Also, If the management inherently knows that CA's are better than MBA's, then they will recruit CA's. MBA's generally dont have that narrow minded thinking and complex that makes them compare themselves to CA's. They will recruit the best. Whether a CA or the MBA. We should not over look our own weaknesses by blaming MBA's..... 

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MBA's were good. And I dont see any point even makeing them responsilbe for the recession. It is equivalent to blaming CA's for Satyam and Enron...... Well, Just to make myself clear, recession has been a part of economic cycles since centuries. No one except God can stop them. And to be rational, I would say It is not an MBA's job ever to stop or predict recession. It is the governments job and an economist's job to do so. MBA's manage people, set organisational strategies and stuff like that. And MBA's have to take risk becauswe share holders expect returns. Adn there is no return without risk. It was bound to fail. 

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NO one can even compare ICAI's post qualification courses liek DIRM etc to any top college 's MBA's..... ICAI s sourses arent worth a dime. The industry knows that. It doesnt attach any value to that. And contrary to what people think, the Indian corporate world is HUNGRY for talented people. It just doenst know where to find them. If ICAI's courses were even worth their wieght in salt, they would be famous all over. ....

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@ CA Surendra... ...

Contrary to what you said, If a person is expert in equity research, he starts getting paid well only after 4 to 5 years of experience..... And they get paid like no one from their ca fraternity can. Economists and equity researchers are among the best paid. coommanding upto 35 to 40 lacs after about 7 years of experience, whcih I dont think 7 years of practice in tax or audit can give.....

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Dear Kool....., 

You took altogether different meaning what I want to say.  Just read my all postings and then decide what I want to say. I never said that CA qualification alone is enough to touch the height. I am of opinion; that common sense  with timely right action is required to get the success.  Why we compare general category CAs with top graded MBAs ? Top graded CAs who did their training with  top practising firms and scored high ranks; are getting handsome packages. 

If only earning is the criteria; than we can see so many persons who have passed 8-10 standards but doing business well. Many of them have established their business from zero level.  

It is really unfortunate that students cannot think beyond service.  

I am of opinion to do equity research for self and not for others. If you are confident; you will beat all the results which are given by Mutual Funds. After some time you can easily establish your own consultancy.

Regarding low cost; I already wrote so many times in some forums; that this gives opportunity to brilliant students to make excellent career.  Now-a-days, many parents are ready to pay blank cheques to well known convent schools to get their kids' admission in the schools as if they are giving guaratee to make their career. It is really very sad situation that primary education is costlier than professional education specially in Commerce Stream. The cost of whole CA education is much lesser than the  one year's cost of primary education in convent schools.  

Just try to think for your own profession after doing service if financial needs are such. You will have a great pleasure. This is my view. It is not necessary that all should agree with it because majority is of view that job is good in present scenario. 

But believe me; those who are ready to establish their own profession; the comings days are very fine because scenario will change. Only time will prove it. (Read my above postings and you will find why I am writing such).  

Surendra sir,

Don't you think that conventional practise is getting saturated at metros and tier 2 cities. Western CA hubs like Mumbai, Ahmedabad and Pune, (i don't what the situated is like in Surat); there are already over 1000 CAs in practise waiting to get clients. For regular work of audit and tax matters; clients are gonna prefer to them than come to freshers like us (i am saying when i pass out). We don't have practise of our parents,aunts, sasurs for us to take forward. And with already 4-4.5 years gone in this course; students will obviously go for thinking of going towards service. Sir, new fields and scopes are coming for our proff. But to gear ourselves for that ; we need to have small sort of such exposure in articleship. Industrial training milna muskil hain. Sir, do you think that Reliance Petrochemicals(just for example) will allow my XYZ Singh and Co, single proprietary firm, to do carbon credit. Pehle carbon credit ka audit sikhna padegaa; and then also we wont get such audit.

Project financing bhi koi fresher firm ko nahi detey.

And doing just tikdaz, and typing audit report u/s 44AB wont gear us for that also.

And especially for students like me; who have come from other states; how do we set up practises here. In my home-town, none of my relatives are businessmen. They are salaried persons with ancestral properties and lots of agri. field. Agri. ka koi tax bharna nahi padtaa. Black income hotii hain; but they use their own means to hide that; let alone use a CA's services.

Plz suggest.