If we shift our focus on "intelligence" while discussing MBA Vs. CA then I don't wish to argue the matter further.

I have exactly the same thing to say. Because for every word which all of us have said till now, I am sure we ourselves can given excpetions to it. I can myself give you exceptions to everything which I have claimed till now about any course or any other matter. Please note, that given below are my opinions, all of you have every right to disagree upon them. I have tried to give an overview in short about the discussions till now.

I would make some concluding remarks this time, so that some clarity would emerge and discussion if any could remain specific.  One of the reasons why we have had so much of discussions is I think because we all come from different backgrounds, experiences and circumstances. 

Like a few of you have seen many CAs leaving job and doing practice and doing great. A few like me have seen that people are leaving practice and switching to jobs as they havent been able to do well. Without knowing any specifics, atleast I would not like to conclude anything about these people.

Further, I have somehow faced lots of difficulties and nightmares because of ICAI and its rules. With gods grace and blessings of my seniors and well wishers like Surendra sir and many others, I have managed to get ut of those difficulties and got the firm I wanted and got all the exposure which I was looking for. Infact I got far beyond what I had expected in my articleship training. Many of my friends and students I can see have not been able to get it. So again, views on articleship training ought to be different.

I have been interacting regularly with many members and well aware of what has been happening at ICAI in the last few years. I have also shared some of the information (like the blog above and will be sharing some more facts of the whitepaper soon). Thats why I have a feeling that ICAI has corporate governance issues, is not transparent and has been doing various activities which are largely not in the interests of members/students. Somehow, many of you might either not be aware of the information of RTI above and the whitepaper or have different information than what I have, which surely means thay you are bound to have a completely different picture of ICAI in your minds than me and many others like me.

My practical experience in various areas somehow makes me feel that our syllabus is not upto the mark in certain areas. Enough needs to be done there. (As mentioned above, this is an opinion and all have right to have opinions and disagree). Many of you might have different experience than I have, which could be better in terms of quality and quantity which obviously means you know better than I do. If you feel the syllabus is great and nothing needs to be changed, its good. I am hapy that you are enjoying it.

Many of you feel that the only way to get rich and get respect is to have formal education and a degree. I have a different feeling though because I come from a different family background and social circle which includes many people who never studied after 10th/12th but earn anytime more than any rankers of any institute. As many of you woulnt know such people or wouldnt believe it, you are sure to have a different view on this matter. I have also seen that in Industy, nobody is untouchable. Anyone who can offer what they are looking at, will get the offers for job/business. For example, I can be a CA, then start a restaurant. People would come to my restaurant if I offer good food, great service and ambience. Nobody would be bothered about my qualification. This applies for all qualifications and businesses. However, many of you might not tend to agree to it for your own reasons.

 

I have also had the privelege to work and interact with many MBAs, Engineers and people from other backgrounds. I have had a great experience and there is nothing that I have come across to make me feel that CAs are better than MBAs or MBAs are better than CAs...or any such combination for any course. According to me every course has its own circle of competence and most of the people tend to be within it. Off course the circle can be extended or broken or changed. Like we discussed many examples like Mr. Motilal Oswal, Vallabh Bhansali, Shankar Mahadevan etc.

 

 

Originally posted by : CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA
	Dear Krunal,    I appreciate your arguments. I am sure that you will not need anyone's guidance because you yourself are matured enough.    Each student should learn from your command over language and style of arguments.    I heartly wish you a very bright future.     I have tried my best (whatever I possess so far)  to do the discussion more interesting and useful.     Very few persons have participated in the forum otherwise we could enjoy it more.   Thanks.

Thank you very much. I am not sure if I need the guidance or not, but I know that I surely need well wishers like you. I surely need blessings of my seniors and god. Since I have always considered myself very fortunate, I even more feel so when I read this message of yours.

Thanking you once again.

Regards,

Krunal

You have proved my words. 

 

So far the discussion was to compare CA vs. MBA. 

 

 

Each one course is good  if suitable to one and if he desires to make career in that.

 

Many times I suggest to my students to focus on learning rather than completing the course. Many students argue that this way we will not pass the exams. I raise my contention that by completing syllabus also;  there is no guarantee that you will pass.  More stress you will feel when despite completing whole syllabus you don't pass.  Actually there is no limit of syllabus in professional examination.

 

Until and unless one takes corrective actions according to the changed circumstances; surely he has to fail whether it is  exam or it is a business. 

 

I have also written many times that there is no need to do CA if  one possesses the common sense to do business. 

 

My own staff who passed 11th in 1990 was employed by me at Rs.800 pm,  I motivated him and he used to finalise private limited companies balance sheets with perfect grouping (without a single mistake).  Now he is earning  Rs.3.00 lacs per annum  (with his own row house).

 

So students should focus  more and more on learning.  If something is not clear through books; take help of internet and go to google, caclubindia, mbaclubindia, taxguru etc. etc....Discuss the matter regularly with groups because each articled clerk has different experience due to different nature of work of the employer.  They should also share their experience with the help of powerpoint presentation - CREATING THEIR OWN GROUP. 

 

Thanks Krunal for your nice presentation.

"Language"; i didn't get what u meant to say, sir? I wish i also had the same brains as soparkar. Man, that guy must be so thinking machine like chacha chaudhury. As a CA;we also have to help clients save tax money; which is seen by many laymen as unethical because taxs is meant to fund national development and defence. Same with case with soparkar.He is doing his duty as a professional by helping his client. I even had read about Ashok Jadeja of Gujarat. Thank god; he was neither CA nor an advocate.

Sure, we should all help CAs who is working for the reforms of icai. He is a man of guts, i must say. If ICAI can do this sort of step-motherly treatment to a CA placed in such a big Channel; hum students ko woh pashu bhi gintey nahi hondey. I saw his blog; and i feel that the reply that there is deep malpractise going on in the icai central council. IF CIC upholds his case then we might get to see the minutes of satyam fiasco investigations as well as transfer ban also. God help the good men and punish the wrongdoers.

 

Originally posted by : jose.p
	what do u mean; before i ,krunal bro and kool08 and surendra sir were shooting in the dark and bluffing?

 i think my friend jose you have a habit of taking thing  in wrong way. why r u including krunal bro & kool08 7 surendra sir in it. Like krunal has clarify his stand with some facts & valid points which has some thing like white paper.

i also clarify to him my point

but i am sad that i am able to clarify the same to you

 

Originally posted by : Krunal Raichura
	Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} To Aksh Kumar,   Thank you for clarifying your stand.   As you are aware, the number of students joining the CA course has been increasing continuously (don’t conclude anything out of it, refer to my earlier post for detailed explanation on what can be concluded out of this growth). So the diversity also comes in i.e. people have their own reasons to do things. Like if you see in case of Jose, it has more to do with Parent’s wishes. Some would join this course for practicing, some would do it for a job, some would do it because they don’t find anything else interesting, and some would do it just for knowledge. So at the roots itself, there is no intention to practice at all among many students joining the course especially in these years of highly global and fast changing environment which brings its own set of challenges and opportunities.   I have already given you the background for the answer to your question how my students i looking to set up there own practice? Before I specifically answer it, just think (you need not even tell it to me and anyone here) as to why people are not thinking of practice? Also think why the number of CAs who are already in practice are leaving it or thinking of leaving it? Some of the points you mentioned are valid i.e. growing at fast pace, time and efforts etc. But I would suggest you just think over it. Try to find out of if something else has gone wrong on the part of ICAI. In my opinion CA practice has great scope; however, it is going beyond reach of people slowly. The reasons of the same are in the whitepaper which I shall upload.   To give you an overview, it has more to do with issues of big 4, and at the same time failure on part of ICAI to keep CA practice as a lucrative profession – this is from the point of view of an individual who passes CA and is thinking of establishing practice. And for these new comers, things are as difficult as it is for any company thinking of entering telecom sector - it still has a long way to go, but see the capex, payback period, competition and policies – I think this perfectly describes CA profession as a business/profession for anyone who passes CA now and thinks of practice – this is again subject to the condition that he is from a middle class family and his father is not a CA.   You wrote - At last krunal thanks for view over the topic atleast now we r having a fair debate which is based on some facts.   We all have been trying to keep this discuss very objective (free from bias and feelings). I can give you the backup (sort of audit evidence) for every word I have spoken till now. If you have any doubts or reservations, please feel free to specify those areas/points, and I will give you the statistics.

 Dear krunal,

In your post you had a pharse

To give you an overview, it has more to do with issues of big 4, and at the same time failure on part of ICAI to keep CA practice as a lucrative profession – this is from the point of view of an individual who passes CA and is thinking of establishing practice. And for these new comers, things are as difficult as it is for any company thinking of entering telecom sector - it still has a long way to go, but see the capex, payback period, competition and policies – I think this perfectly describes CA profession as a business/profession for anyone who passes CA now and thinks of practice – this is again subject to the condition that he is from a middle class family and his father is not a CA.

Failure on part of ICAI to keep CA practice as a lucrative profession

As far as ICAI i don't understand that how ICAI fails to keep CA pratice as a luractive profession. In my view CA pratice still is a luractive profession. i have seen many example of newcomers establishing pratice & even growing at a pace & i also can prove the facts.

Subject to condition that he is from middle class family & his father is not a CA.

My dear krunal i don't understand this point at all. i can give you myself as a example my father is not Ca & i surely thinks i shall start a pratice as soon as i can qualify & i had taken full opportunity during my articleship to interact with some Big names, enable contacts which r helpful in future. Things r not so difficult as you described above.

And i am not a sole example I knew many of same kinds

Waiting for reply soon from You.

Dear Aksh,

If you see all my comments carefully, which are succeeding the one which you have quoted, you will get the answer as to why I have been thinking in a particular manner, and why it is different from what many of you think.

I think the comments which I have posted after the one quoted above answer this question. You may kindly read them carefully.

The content will become reptitive and a never ending discussion would start again if I comment now.

"At last krunal thanks for view over the topic atleast now we r having a fair debate which is based on some facts." You said this, that's why i said that. As far as possible ; i can bring statistics. The most authentic statistics are with ICAI which they themselves are not disclosing when someone files RTI. You see my threads on recent job placements; there u can see statistics. See the results analysis, there u can see statistics. But my main weapon is to use my logic to counter icai's sick policies and self-bragging

 

Dear Sir

 

 

 

We have to stay positive through out the journey once an goal is chosen , but when doubt has been raised one need to clear them.

 

One  invest 4 precious years of life in this course, when one got entry into an Enginering or Doctor profession It is almost surety that after a certain period he will get those degree plus  assisted by  semester system

 

Compare this to C.A So much uncertainty and and hard work. One has to crush himself while in article ship, A true student of old times complete devotion towards his principle.

 

 

Now if some body is saying that C.A are not getting employment also, This is negation of real hard work.

 

I guess most of those C.A are dummy articles who do not find any kind of work, This could be a possibility, otherwise there is so much work in market.

Even People have been able to succed on the basis of their articleship experience in the Maket forget C.A Degree. there is struggle in initial year, or else which profession have scope of private practice.

 

I think Doctors they also do that kind of Hard work and have to do struggle to establish themselves in initial years, they also have these kind of frustration, the difference of personality, attitude come into picture.

 

Later or Sooner hard work always pays.

 

Industry is biased in favor of Engineers, They do not invest that much in to their work, Just one year hard work after 10+2, After that there is well defined easy road.

 

If we compare it with M.B.A, Picture that comes into every body mind is Engineers from top class institute then passing out from IIM, They are confident, good communication , receiver of best education  since childhood ( Most of Cases ) the upper middle class urban Indian.

 

For C.A Students are from real  Bharat, I still remember A brilliant Bihari student sittng behind my in ICWAI exam struggling to translate a typical English word into hindi from question paper, Now how can this brilliant knowledgable hard worker man with poor communication skill can compete with first class M.B.A

 

C.A cater to every type of student, It is like an I.A.S exam

 

The kind of freedom, variety scope this profession have is comparable only to Medical profession.

 

Suggestion : I want to give some suggestions to make this course more attractive

 

Article ship period should be started after clearing of Final course only , So that there should be element of certainty in course , Precious three years are saved in case of average student. Student who think it is not their cup of tea, can always change their goal,

But now once you got into article ship thing, it is not coming back for many just sinking in the life of uncertainity, society pressure, no well defined study means.

 

ICAI  should  undertake  special programm to compete with M.B.A, Every body know C.A are solid in knowledge, it is only some contents of the course ( Personality, communication, Case Studies ) where M.B.A score over C.A, That course of Six months or one year should be based on those area of deficiency, I think three months residential course is a step in that direction but it is a small step

You are dreaming to bear IIMS. Then think at that level.

 

 

In the end INPUT of M.B.A and C.A is different,

 

ICAI needs to change with time, ARITICLE SHIP PROGRAMM SHOULD BE STRUCTURED WELL DEFINED.

 

C.A IN PRACTICE WITH INFRASTRUCTURE SHOULD ONLY HAVE PERMISSION TO EMPLOY ARTICLES. NOT ANY TOM AND HARRY.

 

 

Rest ok

 

Originally posted by : Krunal Raichura
	Dear Aksh, If you see all my comments carefully, which are succeeding the one which you have quoted, you will get the answer as to why I have been thinking in a particular manner, and why it is different from what many of you think. I think the comments which I have posted after the one quoted above answer this question. You may kindly read them carefully. The content will become reptitive and a never ending discussion would start again if I comment now.

 ok krunal now i get it. acutally i missed your post.

At the end i think we can differnt views but it is great that we r sharing it on this forum. This will help us grow. 

 

Originally posted by : jose.p
	"At last krunal thanks for view over the topic atleast now we r having a fair debate which is based on some facts." You said this, that's why i said that. As far as possible ; i can bring statistics. The most authentic statistics are with ICAI which they themselves are not disclosing when someone files RTI. You see my threads on recent job placements; there u can see statistics. See the results analysis, there u can see statistics. But my main weapon is to use my logic to counter icai's sick policies and self-bragging

 My dear friend jose, i am trying to say in my statements the real facts  like the problem in pratice of CA.

Before my first post in forum i have a feeling that the debate CA VS MBA is based on the preson in industry but nothing much has been talked upon CA in pratice.

no, brother it is CA as a whole. But the article, in whose the economic times had written article; and we were countering those points is on CA as decision makers in corporate world.

 

I am not any way related with C.A Course as of now, just enjoying the argument between Surendar Sir and esp. Mr. krunal,

 

C.A is the dream of every  Student of Commerce Dream, I was extremely surprised to know about that status of Placement after completion of course, there is so much hardship yet so small return with element of uncertainty also.

 

Still Surendar Sir has been successfully able to defend his fort, I would like to add my little bit to breach outer walls of that fort.

 

Since more arguments have been invited by respected Sir.

 

 

It can easily be established through industry data that C.A are working supportive roles to M.B.A’s who are  mainly in leading position in the departments, Why is it so ?, There lie the reason of low pay package offered to C.A in campus as work allotted is directly proportional to pay package.

 

                                    The root of  problem must be lying in C.A Course. How many case studies, Group Discussion are being done in C.A Course. I am not a C.A Student only a commerce Graduate. But I can guess there are none. Regular study and indirect mode can not be compared

 

 

But in C.A There is three years Article Ship Training supposed to give the feeling of on job training.

 

Article Training Module :-

 

                                    If  ICAI has defined Training Module for Article Ship Students,  Do they bother to check that Each student has got exposure of most of if not all topics which he has studied theoretically, what are the topics which he need to know in first year and what after that.

 

what are there check points to assess students progress, have they ever visited the C.A office,

 

 

Responsibility of  Mentor

 

 

What is these things Dummies Articles, Since it is now a common phenomenon, how many C.A have been penalized till now.

 

 

If there is provision of any accountability , responsibility of mentor ( C.A ) who has got services of cheap educated worker towards his training defined in System.

 

 

 

Low Transparency in Exam

 

 

What about manipulation of Results as alleged by students in many forums. It is said Passing percentage in final result is directly related to demand in Market and economy situation.

                                    Instead of deliberately failing a student can not ICAI  declare his rank as in IIM’S top 12000-13000 could be awarded degrees. This will create a fair Game, otherwise morale of many passed students get lowered due to manipulation of exams.

 

 

Course

 

Since I am not a student I can not say much, but going through mail some subjects like information technology could hardly be remembered after exam, with onset of computerized financial accounting, and SAP ( FICO ), there is scope of drastic change in course. Some soul searching need to be done about strengths of M.B.A Course as that is most relevant to industry needs. Any way I can not say much just applying commonsens.

 

 

Stipend

 

Can any body tell what are the minimum wages of an unskilled industrial worker, must be much more than an Graduate Article Clerk. Is this the respect of education of 15 years.

 

Could any body can define the policy of Stipend fixation ? is it linked with inflation or what

 

Years ago we were a agricultural based economy , now we are going to be next only after china in 10-15 years, could not it be possible that Stipend to be linked with industry

 turn over or some different relevant factor.

 

Now a days A.G.M are held in Five Stars but poor guy who has done all ground work is getting the amount  in form of stipend which does not deserve to be mentioned.

 

Times have changed, Salary has been increased ten times in last ten years , Can not companies foot Aritcle’s stipend as they are going globally on the strengths of their balance sheet prepared by these very poor, skilled worker of our beloved country.

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Question

 

 

In the end this is  question to CA Surendar Sir

 

 

 

What is that an Mechanical Engineer after 3 years of Shop floor experience in a Automobile company goes for 01 Year Executive course in ISB there he change his stream to Finance, After exact one year he supersede an CA by a margin of two post

 

What is so special with that course or that person, what kind of transformation has he got in that one year.

 

 

If you could answer this

 

Then next question is

 

What kind of a leader  a guy will become after three years of Article ship where he has to follow every kind of instruction of his mentor, where he is not supposed to say no to his command as he is totally dependent on the goodwill of his mentor.

There is not support to him for any grievances. No correction of selecting wrong dishonest mentor where as his whole life depend on these three years.

 

 

I think he will become a brave soldier who only knows how to act not to command But Industry required Leaders, live  Leaders who can act quickly in crisis situation, who can present brilliantly which is in actual ordinary.

 

This is enough

 

 

Times have changed with that Methodology , course ware, and approach needs to be changed otherwise with the opening up of education sector some things can become history.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Very Well said Sir