Those who feel my views are biased should also see /forum/shall-i-say-that-it-dosen-t-bother-u-guys--19048.asp

I had gone to every extent to argue as aggressively as I am doing here, when one of the students blamed the CA profession unnecessarily for sub-prime crisis.

Very true, krunal bro. I didn't get articleship even despite getting 159 in cpt ; in any big4 firm or big CA firm because i had no reference; even though i wasn't a muslim. I can't wait for getting that white paper. And lots of money from icai funds are being embezelled by the administrators; even the delhi icai staff alleged that. And i sympathise with your ordear; even i have bore the brunt of icai staff's indifferences in local icai branch

 

Originally posted by : Krunal Raichura
	Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} To Aksh, Its sad to see your sentence - Carrer But sir i also feel bad when people took there biased views and half knowledge upfront. I never said CA practice doesn’t have opportunities. Since the very beginning I have mentioned this not one or two but many times that CAs are the only people who have value in accouting, auditing and taxation area. Our laws don’t allow anyone else to enter this area in any case. I am happy to know that your CA has got a good practice. In this forum we are not discussing about your CA or any one particular person as such. All the discussions on this forum are general. When I said that the ICAI has failed to keep CA practice lucrative, it is not based on my experience, but it’s the statistics of ICAI itself. It is ICAI who says that the number of practicing CAs have reduced. A group of over 500 CAs have come out with a white paper on this issue of CA practice no more being lucrative. They have hit out openly on big 4 and their activities. Besides they have even discussed some other issues. This whitepaper is made by over 500 CAs and not me. I will surely upload the whitepaper for your copy soon. It is quite wrong on your part to call anyone half knowledge. It is you yourself who is not aware of many of these facts and you made a conclusion about others so easily. To You and Surendra Sir – If my views are biased, what will you say about these things which I have posted  - /forum/re-do-u-in-favour-a-dummy-articleship-is-only-to-relatives-27141.asp /forum/re-aritcleship-or-degree-29687.asp /forum/re-why-students-r-taking-dummy-articles--30409.asp /community/ca-investment-banking-114.asp (see all the topics and my replies)

 To krunal,

first thing first, Carrer But sir i also feel bad when people took there biased views and half knowledge upfront.

i did not mean to disrecpect some one & not pointed out to someone.

In this forum we are not discussing about your CA or any one particular person as such. All the discussions on this forum are general. When I said that the ICAI has failed to keep CA practice lucrative, it is not based on my experience, but it’s the statistics of ICAI itself

i also give one example as almost refering to that highest package being paid or offered.

As far as stats of icai of goes i agree fully with you. but please share your views with me that how my students i looking to set up there own pratice? i think is because today  generation wants to grow at pace that includes me also. and in pratice it takes alot of time & effots its has heavy cash flow after 10-15 years of effort that why Fresh CA Passout look for Job in MNC & no. of in pratice goes on decline

 I will surely upload the whitepaper for your copy soon.

i am also looking forward to it and i accept that i had no knowledge about the same.

At last krunal thanks for view over the topic atleast now we r having a fair debate which is based on some facts.

what do u mean; before i ,krunal bro and kool08 and surendra sir were shooting in the dark and bluffing?

To Aksh Kumar,

 

Thank you for clarifying your stand.

 

As you are aware, the number of students joining the CA course has been increasing continuously (don’t conclude anything out of it, refer to my earlier post for detailed explanation on what can be concluded out of this growth). So the diversity also comes in i.e. people have their own reasons to do things. Like if you see in case of Jose, it has more to do with Parent’s wishes. Some would join this course for practicing, some would do it for a job, some would do it because they don’t find anything else interesting, and some would do it just for knowledge. So at the roots itself, there is no intention to practice at all among many students joining the course especially in these years of highly global and fast changing environment which brings its own set of challenges and opportunities.

 

I have already given you the background for the answer to your question how my students i looking to set up there own practice? Before I specifically answer it, just think (you need not even tell it to me and anyone here) as to why people are not thinking of practice? Also think why the number of CAs who are already in practice are leaving it or thinking of leaving it? Some of the points you mentioned are valid i.e. growing at fast pace, time and efforts etc. But I would suggest you just think over it. Try to find out of if something else has gone wrong on the part of ICAI. In my opinion CA practice has great scope; however, it is going beyond reach of people slowly. The reasons of the same are in the whitepaper which I shall upload.

 

To give you an overview, it has more to do with issues of big 4, and at the same time failure on part of ICAI to keep CA practice as a lucrative profession – this is from the point of view of an individual who passes CA and is thinking of establishing practice. And for these new comers, things are as difficult as it is for any company thinking of entering telecom sector - it still has a long way to go, but see the capex, payback period, competition and policies – I think this perfectly describes CA profession as a business/profession for anyone who passes CA now and thinks of practice – this is again subject to the condition that he is from a middle class family and his father is not a CA.

 

You wrote - At last krunal thanks for view over the topic atleast now we r having a fair debate which is based on some facts.

 

We all have been trying to keep this discuss very objective (free from bias and feelings). I can give you the backup (sort of audit evidence) for every word I have spoken till now. If you have any doubts or reservations, please feel free to specify those areas/points, and I will give you the statistics.

Whenever we talk in forum about CA profession; article training, transfers and dummy articles are the key issues for students.  These are not the key issues for the profession. CA profession has its own challenges and that is why from mere auditing of past records now it has grip on so many areas. No need to discuss about these areas.

 

I totally disagree that CA profession requires a lot of expenditure initially. 

 

Those who are in practice; most of them come from middle class family.  You should have passion only to be successful in CA profession. The same way and style as you pass you CA qualification.   Conduct  a survey and you will find what is the truth. 

 

 

If  candidates don't have passion and just wish to join service; then it is their choice. CA profession is made for practice. Job has emerged as an alternative solution because due to vast knowledge of different areas of business activities  they are in better position than before. So it gives dual opportunities which generally MBA students don't have. They can't think beyond service. 

 

Due to heavy penalties for non-compliance and bettter  administration by government departments toward legal formalities; now it is possible for CA candidates to find place in business organisations. Nobody was caring for CS students previsouly till heavy penalties were imposed in Company Law.  Last year on 13th July, 2009; I was called for by a Mumbai based company to provide a CS who possesses 5 years experience. The package OFFERRED was ONLY RS. 20.00 LACS PER ANNUM. I don't think that a CS qualified member could imagine that this much can be offerred. When I called certain CS who were in JOB. They could not face the interview.  So it is not the matter that there is no big opportunity for CA students. They question is that they take the subjects to qualify CA rather than to focus their attention on gaining PRACTICAL EXPOSURE. If they couldn't gain the desired area of knowledge during their practical training; then that is fault either on the parents or the students who choose the organisation. One should be careful while choosing his career. The rule of CAVEAT EMPTOR applies here also.  

 

The presence of CA profession is ranging from small town to metro cities. Despite earning only Rs. 2 lacs in those towns, they are happy because they don't wish to leave their parents. This sacrifice can be made only by CA students because they are more emotionally attached with the family.  They know very well how their family supported in qualifying CA.  (The same you will hardly found for Medical Students - after qualifying they immediately switch to another place).  One more practical example I can give you - one Mr. Asish Tayal who is serving at HINDUSTAN ZINC ( a Sterlite group company) is now shifting himself to do practice because he wish to live with his parent. You will not find  such  situation for MBA students.  They will not find any job there - I hope all will agree with this point.  So CAs are serving the society in large. Unfortunately we talk only about big 4 then tell me what others are doing ?  There are many CAs who have done miracle in their profession - CA Motilal Oswal, CA Vallabh Bhansali to name a few. Motilal Oswal earned more than Rs.2 crore in 1992. Vallabh Bhansali enjoys 240 days vacation in a year and still could manage more than Rs.4000 crore towards IPO in India.

 

 

We are talking about MBA Vs. CA.  MBA can perform only when he is working in a team.  CA can perform even without a team. CA Saurabh Soparkar (Ahmeadabad) possessing an office of more than 2000 sq. foot, employs only one person and still is one of the best practitioner  in Direct Tax  in Gujarat. To earn Rs.50 lacs per annum is not a big question for an individual practising CA now a days. It is true that it was not possible to earn even Rs.1 lac in practice 20 years before. Many times a practising CA earns in a day what he used to earn in whole year when he started his practice. 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

I don’t need to conduct the survery. I am well aware Passion indeed is the biggest asset (see my blog for more details). It is not only for CAs but for everybody.

 

If candidates don't have passion and just wish to join service; then it is their choice. CA profession is made for practice. Job has emerged as an alternative solution because due to vast knowledge of different areas of business activities  they are in better position than before. So it gives dual opportunities which generally MBA students don't have. They can't think beyond service.

 

Passionate people can also do service. “Vast knowledge of different areas of business activities” is true subject to terms and conditions as discussed by both of us earlier regarding article ship training, interest and passion again. This has nothing to do with CA course per se. Anyone can read the same books which we do, read more books, work with a CA (luckily not as an article trainee but as an employee) or any businessman and gain all the knowledge. He wont have a degree though, but it anyways doesn’t matter that’s what I heard from you sometime back and I also believe in it.

 

So it is not the matter that there is no big opportunity for CA students. They question is that they take the subjects to qualify CA rather than to focus their attention on gaining PRACTICAL EXPOSURE. If they couldn't gain the desired area of knowledge during their practical training; then that is fault either on the parents or the students who choose the organisation. One should be careful while choosing his career. The rule of CAVEAT EMPTOR applies here also.

 

Correct. Let me also add to this by saying that NOBODY IS UNTOUCHABLE in business and industry. Whether you are a CA or MBA or bcom or nobody…if you provide what people want, you are through. If you have passion, are ready to take up challenges, work hard, learn….you might be anybody, but success is to come sooner or later. However, for purusing audit, tax related stuff, you have to be a CA, thanks to the laws of our country. For anything else, you can do it without CA….that’s the only difference.

 

You will not find  such  situation for MBA students.  They will not find any job there - I hope all will agree with this point.

 

Yes, but these small towns where CAs are practicing are the places where MBAs or for that matter anybody can set up a big business. After earning a few thousand crores out of that, they would surely not hesitate to pay 1% of it to a CA for doing his sh*t work of audit and tax.

 

There are many CAs who have done miracle in their profession - CA Motilal Oswal, CA Vallabh Bhansali to name a few. Motilal Oswal earned more than Rs.2 crore in 1992. Vallabh Bhansali enjoys 240 days vacation in a year and still could manage more than Rs.4000 crore towards IPO in India.

This is true but not related to my discussion on CA practice. What these guys are doing today has very little to do with CA course syllabus. Please also note that the area in which these people are working like stock broking, is something that doesn’t require any qualification as such. And you will surely find people from various other backgrounds, not only MBA, but even engineering…who are into that business and have done as well as Mr. Motilal Oswal or Vallabh Bansali have done.

 

We are talking about MBA Vs. CA.  MBA can perform only when he is working in a team.  CA can perform even without a team.

I didn’t understand this logic. I don’t find any sense in this. I have more than 1000 examples to give here. However, read “Stay Foolish Stay Hungry” for the top 25 examples which I have to give.

 

CA Saurabh Soparkar (Ahmeadabad) possessing an office of more than 2000 sq. foot, employs only one person and still is one of the best practitioner  in Direct Tax  in Gujarat. To earn Rs.50 lacs per annum is not a big question for an individual practising CA now a days. It is true that it was not possible to earn even Rs.1 lac in practice 20 years before. Many times a practising CA earns in a day what he used to earn in whole year when he started his practice.

 

This is the result of years and years of hard work and experience with luck. I appreciate his effort. I thank you for posting this, it should serve as an example to everyone here who have been wasting all their time and efforts to talk of others and criticize them (through various forums)….it shows that comparing starting salaries has no meaning. In this way, you would find many MBAs from top bschools like IIM also who never took a job and started their business and earn 50 lacs per week. Refer to the book above for more on this.

 

I clearly mentioned my stand in earlier post. I reiterate the relevant portion of what I said - In my opinion CA practice has great scope; however, it is going beyond reach of people slowly. To substantiate upon this, I mean to say that CA practice has great scope, but lets take an example of a student who passes CA final this May. He comes from a poor family, has all his family responsibilities, sisters marriage etc. If he thinks of starting a practice, for the first 4-5 years, he will end up slogging and might not earn as much as big 4 or industry would pay him in job. Again, there is no guarantee that after 4-5 yrs he will surely get great money and succeed in practice….this is just like doing any other business, risk factors involved. However, at the same time, I can also tell you that there is ever possibility that this guy starts earning more than a crore in year 3 or 4 or 5 as well….it all depends on luck, market conditions that time, and off course his hard work….All that I am saying that CA practice for him would be like doing any other business which has its own set of risks and opportunities. However for a person of the background I mentioned, risk taking capacity would be low and hence even if he wants, for the first few years of his life, Job would be the only or the most likely option. And in that case, he has all the good opoortunities in accounting, auditing and tax. But given our syllabus and training pattern, it is very unlikely (not impossible because as discussed earlier NOBODY IS UNTOUCHABLE) that he would be able to go and compete with MBAs in Mckinsey, BCG or in a front office of any Investment Bank.

 

YA ; i am also reading "Stay hungry, stay foolish". Lovely book about entrepeneurs of iim-a. I think, u will also quote the advice given by Shantanu Prakash from Educomp.That shows the value of entrepeneur. He also gives the credit of the management lessons he learnt at IIM-A. Can' t MBAs work alone? I didn't understand this statement.

lemme add a joke here. Shanakar mahadevan was a software engineer and worked in some mnc as well. But he found that boring and joined music industry. Is he a top music director becuase he was a software engineer?

Saurabh NATWARLAL Soparkar is practising as an advocate in tribunals ; and is not having cop of CA. https://220.227.161.82/locm_res.asp?MRH_MRN=033053 And he is also dummy (jokin) HE and his wife are called Bunty and babli of ahmedabad in the cyberspace. AFTER ALL HE IS SON OF NATWARLAL. PArr padhne se malum padhta hain they have great brains. https://cansopar.blogspot.com/ https://sites.google.com/site/buntyaurbubblyadvocates/ https://abdulkalamindia.blogspot.com/2004/09/extract-of-email-sent-on-25-7-04-to-cj.html https://corinq.blogspot.com/2005/07/e-mail-on-21st-july-2005.html https://psmody07.wordpress.com/to-swati-soparkar/ One thing for sure. When we are CA or lawyer; professional ethics take the backseat. the ethics are sold in the notebooks and books which we study as a student.

For more on my views regarding transparency at ICAI, and its secret motto - visit https://arungirifca.blogspot.com/

This blog hs been specially made to reach everyone and make them aware of corporate governance issues at ICAI. The person is well known to me and a good friend of mine. He has immense contribtutions for CA profession and even CA students (he and a few others have already started the work to build a hostel for CA students in Pune).

I would urge everyone to join his campaign of reforms at ICAI.

"Yes, but these small towns where CAs are practicing are the places where MBAs or for that matter anybody can set up a big business. After earning a few thousand crores out of that, they would surely not hesitate to pay 1% of it to a CA for doing his sh*t work of audit and tax."

 

 

So easy to say but  impossible to set up such business in a small period. At one place you talk about Job and then you come to business of crores as if it is so easy to set up by an MBA and that also at villages and town !  

 

Why you come to audit and tax only. A CA is not supposed to do this job only. Mostly he does audit only for 2 months in a year. For rest of the year; he can engage in his area of choice and he can change his area of practice as many times as he wishes.   CA INSTITUTE NEVER LODGES A RESTRICTION ON THE AREA OF CHOICE WHEN HE CHOOSE TO START A PRACTICE. The word 'PRACTISING CA' is enough. That is why he need not emphasis  his specialized area.  With the help of advising in Investment only; one can earn Rs.10-30 lacs very easily p.a. and this is a part time activity of a CA. 

 

Audits are at the mercy of empanelments.  I don't like to do audits and taxation although I have interest in these subjects.  When one conducts the audits; all the business secrets come to the notice of a CA which is a privilege to him only. 

 

 

Saurabh Soparkar did LLB with CA  because without doing that he cannot appear before High Courts. 

 

If we shift our focus on "intelligence" while discussing MBA Vs. CA then I don't wish to argue the matter further. 

 

The CA course is for general category people as well as for special category people. Everyone can afford it.

 

Even handicapped students did CA  successfully.  

 

I don't find that  earning money is the only criteria to decide which one is best.  There are so many MBAs also who were kicked back to the pavilion in the recent recession which was not a case with a CA.

 

The profession of CA gives more alternatives than MBA hence this is more secured.  I you say that a CA remained unemployed for 6 months after qualification; tell me the case and send his resume. (everyone is invited). I will get him employed. It is my challenge. 

saurabh NATWARLAL soparkar despite all these fraud accusations should be commended as he has made most of his CA and LLB qualifications. Itna bada cases handle karne kam baat nahi hai. After all; after studies are over; everyone wants best returns in form of money. Whatever he is doing with his wife; he is doing under legal boundaries. LAge raho.. If i don't get employed; then i will surely ask ur help, sir. I hope u don't forget.

 

Dear Jose, 

After considering your language;  I will surely consider your case what you deserve. I will not forget my words. Be assured. 

Dear Krunal, 

 

I appreciate your arguments. I am sure that you will not need anyone's guidance because you yourself are matured enough. 

 

Each student should learn from your command over language and style of arguments. 

 

I heartly wish you a very bright future.  

 

I have tried my best (whatever I possess so far)  to do the discussion more interesting and useful.  

 

Very few persons have participated in the forum otherwise we could enjoy it more.

 

Thanks.