Dear Jose and Aksh, 

 

Your points have due weightage. 

 

If Jose has determined to be a CA then nobody can stop him to be a CA because that much passion is required for qualification. But don't say the training as bl**dy. Many times in life we have to face difficult situation and this articles training will prepare you for the worst in the life; if it happens. (It is my experience). 

 

By expending one more year; if career is sure; then it is a good bargain. 

 

I hope now you both are clear about CA career which gives something unique which other courses don't give. What is that something unique; cannot be explained by words. 

 

Originally posted by : AKSH KUMAR
	Originally posted by : jose.p If i leave CA midway; then i wont be able to see straight into the eyes of my parents. They had wanted to do graduation in economics from london/manchester and then do mba straightaway; but it was i who defied and enrolled myself into CA.   Now it is up to me to clear it. As less than 1 year left of bl**dy articleship(if there is no extension); i can't and wont leave it.  See Mr Jose, after all that had being talked upon you still wants to be a CA First & then go for MBA depsite having a option to MBA From London That my Point About CA Vs MBA Thing

Bro, its not the way as u are portraying it to be. as upto 1 year left for articleship, which is the thing that is main hurdle to accomplish; and as i have already spent huge resources in this field to become CA(money as well as 3 precious years in this;); i will be persisting this upto 2-3 attempts of CA final. MBA is always on the cards. It is not like until i finish CA; i wont go for MBA. Things would have been easier had i been in old scheme of pe2; we could give CA finals in 2 years of articleship. Here it is 3.5 years of articleship. Kitne log to bichh mein hi bhag jaate honge. :p

Originally posted by : CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA
	Dear Jose and Aksh,    Your points have due weightage.    If Jose has determined to be a CA then nobody can stop him to be a CA because that much passion is required for qualification. But don't say the training as bl**dy. Many times in life we have to face difficult situation and this articles training will prepare you for the worst in the life; if it happens. (It is my experience).    By expending one more year; if career is sure; then it is a good bargain.    I hope now you both are clear about CA career which gives something unique which other courses don't give. What is that something unique; cannot be explained by words.

I am not sure whether "My articleship" will have any value addition in my future corporate life; but surely it will surely has made my mind and heart somewhat immune to nervous breakdown. That might help in future.

Dear Surendra Sir,

Please find below my replies to your views below -

If some members are not getting higher salaries then the fault is on their side. They thought that by qualifying CA they will get job.  They joined CA training whatever was available because they just wanted to complete it anyhow without knowing the importance of training.  Whereas if a student goes to buy a shirt he tries his best of purchase the best one.  The same is not applied while selecting for CA firm ! 

Please tell how will a 12^th std pass student, who has just passed CPT know what is the “right” for him. To some extent good members like you can advice, but for that those students would need luck to come in touch with people like you. Even after getting a suggestion and following it, if they feel they made a mistake, or if they are not comfortable with the firm, then what? Based on current rules of ICAI, all that I can say is that the student will have to slog where he is, work there even if he is not interested, in short give up fundamental rights.

 

Qualification is a gate pass to the entry of an organisation.  If one can't perform; he will be in trouble. 

That is why I strongly believe in learning than qualification. I have also seen so many persons who are earning well despite low education.  It means common sense is required to be successful.

You see some businessmen invest (waste) Rs.10 crores in business and very soon  it is converted into a sick unit.

 In Surat, property brokers earn Rs.2 lacs per month  -  easily !!  Many CAs are earning well following their advice. 

 Hence, to be successful only 20% intelligence is required and 80% implementation thereof. 

Thank You for posting the above sentences. I have been trying to convey the same message though my blog and many of the forum posts. Agreed 100%, however that wasn’t our point of debate.

 

IF AN INSTITUTION IS DOING ALL THE WRONGS AND STILL IT'S COURSE  IS  AMONG THE MOST POPULAR THEN I WILL TELL IT IS MAGIC WHICH THE INSTITUTE CAN PERFORM ONLY ! THE INCREASING NUMBER OF CA STUDENTS IN INDIA IS ALSO LOOKED AS MAGIC FIGURE FOR FOREIGN COUNTRIES. 

 Recently some qualified fresh members have been appointed at Rs.70 lacs packages. I think you also know it. When you talk about MBA then you took the upper side employment and when you see CA then you take the lowest figure. Why ?  I regularly see so many MBA students who are in search of job and they are not even offered a package of Rs.7000/- p.m.

If CA profession is not so useful then why each and every commerce student rush for CA ?  TELL ME WHAT IS THE REASON ?  I AM SURE YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO ANSWER IT BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOU ALL ARE .........

Sir, popularity related discussion is quite subjective. This course might be very popular among accounting, auditing and tax professionals, or in some CA coaching classes….Rest, everyone has seen the State of ICAI on CNBC.

 

Just because the number of smokers is increasing rapidly, you cant say that Cigarette smoking is good for health. Your justification of CA course based on the number of students joining it sounds quite irrational to me. This reminds me of some of the important lessons I have learnt in Stock Markets. People who keep loosing money in stock markets think on these lines…they buy/sell based on what everyone else says or does. This is complete irrationality. Consensus is always wrong, that’s what every successful trader and investor will tell you. Please re-think over your justification of CA course based on the number of students joining it…now I wonder why CAs and CA students believe in Efficient Market Thoery!!! :-)

 

Sir, it is very obvious for us to compare CAs with MBAs from top bschools. That is because today, just like we have a dustbin at every few kms, we have bschools….we cant consider any bschool for our comparisons. I have always been against comparisons of courses because the purpose of CA course is quite diff from what an MBA or CFA is. The comparison comes only when we are talking of suitability of CAs for the jobs which those guys do. Somehow we feel we are great, but CAs don’t exist anywhere in Startegy Consulting or Front office Investment Bank. That doesn’t mean CA course is bad, but I made this point to say that people must not go gaga about CA or for that matter any course. Like you mentioned, it is the inner power of the individual that eventually counts.

 

 

You said that my replies dont cover your basic points, and that my views are biased. You are also of the opinion that institute has done good to students and members. Can you please tell what has institute done for students? Even in case of members, 90% are in industry. I know so many CAs who are leaving practice and moving to jobs. ICAI has miserably failed to keep CA practice a lucrative profession. They have done nothing about the big 4's...and there are many issues which I am sure you are aware of, and it wont be nice to post them in public.

 

Originally posted by : jose.p
	Originally posted by : AKSH KUMAR   Originally posted by : jose.p If i leave CA midway; then i wont be able to see straight into the eyes of my parents. They had wanted to do graduation in economics from london/manchester and then do mba straightaway; but it was i who defied and enrolled myself into CA.   Now it is up to me to clear it. As less than 1 year left of bl**dy articleship(if there is no extension); i can't and wont leave it.  See Mr Jose, after all that had being talked upon you still wants to be a CA First & then go for MBA depsite having a option to MBA From London That my Point About CA Vs MBA Thing Bro, its not the way as u are portraying it to be. as upto 1 year left for articleship, which is the thing that is main hurdle to accomplish; and as i have already spent huge resources in this field to become CA(money as well as 3 precious years in this;); i will be persisting this upto 2-3 attempts of CA final. MBA is always on the cards. It is not like until i finish CA; i wont go for MBA. Things would have been easier had i been in old scheme of pe2; we could give CA finals in 2 years of articleship. Here it is 3.5 years of articleship. Kitne log to bichh mein hi bhag jaate honge. :p

 My dear friend i am also on the same page as you are. i also one whole year of articleship to be done.

but my point is that CA Vs MBA is all about KNOWLEDGE VS COMMUNICTION SKILLS.And also yaar MBA is a certainly a value addition course( when done from a reputed B-school).

However on your point that   It is not like until i finish CA; i wont go for MBA

i also have same view about the same still i think that MBA is only a VALUE ADDTION  to CA.

and abt the money thing you refering be prepared to spend more when you are going to be a MBA from london.

 

Originally posted by : CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA
	Dear Jose and Aksh,    Your points have due weightage.    If Jose has determined to be a CA then nobody can stop him to be a CA because that much passion is required for qualification. But don't say the training as bl**dy. Many times in life we have to face difficult situation and this articles training will prepare you for the worst in the life; if it happens. (It is my experience).    By expending one more year; if career is sure; then it is a good bargain.    I hope now you both are clear about CA career which gives something unique which other courses don't give. What is that something unique; cannot be explained by words.

 Respected Surendra Sir,

thanks for you kind words. i am very clear abt the value of CA Course & Carrer But sir i also feel bad when people took there biased views and half knowledge upfront.

Correct me sir if i am wrong, i think CA In Practice Has so many Oppournties which the any other Carrer seldom Offer. i Had seen my own boss grow from a single Ca firm to a Firm of 6 CA in just 2.5 years & doing work from individual Tax Audit to reg. 7 audit of CRY.

Again thanks 7 hoping you will understand point Sir

U are lucky to find a inspiring CA. Mere current cum dusre CA ki undar ek mahine articleship nikallo; maan jaungaa. MBA was already in my target even before i cleared class 10. CA came just after i joined B.Com.I did CA because i wanted sound grasp of finance and somewhat taxation before i launched for MBA. My articleship has not fulfilled my logic for joining CA so far; and i dont think so my fortunes will overturn this last year. Abb to bass; yeh CA degree chaihiye haath main so that CAT/GMAT ka prep jald se jald suru karluu. But, don't dare call me,krunal bhaiya, and Koole08 as "people with half knowledge". Only God has full knowledge.

Thanks all the members for continued discussion. 

 

 

My special thanks to Krunal and Aksh.

 

 

 

You both have discussed the matter decently. The hues and cry in the student community is that the Institute is not taking right steps towards training. 

 

 

 

1. I have never heard a single request from a  CPT  passed student to make his career by giving proper guidance.

 

Nobody listens !  (For detailed discussion, please refer my article mentioned at the end of my discussion). 

 

They are more interested in coaching than in training. Thank God that now training will commence only after IPCC. This step taken by the Institute is towards improvement in training. IPCC qualified students will have no tension of studies and they would focus their attention on training.

 

 

2. If there is no worth in the Institute's qualification; how one can imagine that it can fetch Rs.70.00 Lacs to a fresh qualified member ? It means; he took right training in right manner at right place.  I already wrote that at the time of joining training; student don't bother because it is burdensome for them and they want to pass it anyhow. Very few students like you are so alert.

 

3. Each CA firm should be understood like an MBA institute.

If you join B grade firm; your training will be of B grade. There is nothing astonishing.

A CA firm is like a training institute and the CA Institute is like a University which make rules and conducts  exams only. 

If one takes admission in a C grade college then he will get the education of C grade only.(Exception is always there and it will happen only when a student deserves the best).

What is the fault of the University? If a students has just passed CPT by scoring 50% or nearabouts; then one can imagine what type of college he is entitled to. For students who scored 80% or more in CPT; the doors of good CA firms are always open. Agreed or not ? 

 

4. Tell me which University  helps students in Education ? CA training is unique specially looking to its low cost - I claim.  Due to low cost it is affordable to every student who has a dream to be a renowned person.  

Compare the cost of one year of a primary standard in convent school with the whole cost of CA course.

Parents are ready to offer blank cheques in those convent schools as if they will guarantee the career. What they offer to the CAs who provides good training ?  

 

I agree that there are certain lapses on the part of the Institute. But it does not mean that the fault is of Institute only.  Why transfers were banned ? Because of taking undue benefit by the students. (although It also questions the independence of the member that he used to give such transfer when influenced by  certain clients).  

 

Our CA Institute is number  3rd  in the world -  in respect of quality !  

 

 

The motto of a CA is never to earn too much money. It gives dignity. When a CA conducts an audit then he  behaves  like a judge by giving his unbiased report.

 

You should not accept the position of a judge if you wish to earn more and more. 

 

Regarding selection of the course and the training; you have not commented what I wrote earlier : "regarding purchase of a shirt by a student."

 

Many students waste their training period.

 

FOR DETAILED DISCUSSION ON ALL THE ISSUES OF A CA STUDENT PLEASE READ MY ARTICLE :

 

"ONE SHOT SUCCESS IN CA"  

Originally posted by : AKSH KUMAR
	Respected Surendra Sir, thanks for you kind words. i am very clear abt the value of CA Course & Carrer But sir i also feel bad when people took there biased views and half knowledge upfront. Correct me sir if i am wrong, i think CA In Practice Has so many Oppournties which the any other Carrer seldom Offer. i Had seen my own boss grow from a single Ca firm to a Firm of 6 CA in just 2.5 years & doing work from individual Tax Audit to reg. 7 audit of CRY. Again thanks 7 hoping you will understand point Sir

 

From your practical training experience; one can imagine what is scope in practice IN INDIA.  Whereas still most of students are in search of JOB.

 

Many students wish to join MNC as if one the best career is there.  Many wish to go to foreign countries to earn handsome money. 

 

I think we have enough ROTI here.

 

(Exception : to gain experience; one may go). 

 

The ultimate aim should be to be an enterpreneur. One mission should be there in our life rather than to earn money only.  

(In initial years of  the career; we have to do which we don't like because we all need money).  

 

But, after a certain level of earning and savings; the importance of money is not there  (These are my personal views about life, most of the persons may not agree). 

 

A change in our attitude is required. We should do the best for our country so that we will feel proud. 

 

Every point has it own pros and cons.  Please don't take otherwise. I respect views of all.   

 

Originally posted by : jose.p
	U are lucky to find a inspiring CA. Mere current cum dusre CA ki undar ek mahine articleship nikallo; maan jaungaa. MBA was already in my target even before i cleared class 10 . CA came just after i joined B.Com.I did CA because i wanted sound grasp of finance and somewhat taxation before i launched for MBA. My articleship has not fulfilled my logic for joining CA so far; and i dont think so my fortunes will overturn this last year. Abb to bass; yeh CA degree chaihiye haath main so that CAT/GMAT ka prep jald se jald suru karluu. But, don't dare call me,krunal bhaiya, and Koole08 as "people with half knowledge". Only God has full knowledge.

 My dear friend jose, why r u so aggresive in your  apporach. you are challengeing me to work under your boss. And using the pharse like But, don't dare call me,krunal bhaiya, and Koole08 as "people with half knowledge". Only God has full knowledge.

whom am i to dare something its your view & way towards life. but i am just saying that as you said MBA was already in my target even before i cleared class 10.

CA was my target & i am doing the same

but you r in CA & claims MBA to be a Dream which you will fulfill later. you know wht. jose i just think you r the right preson in the wrong place.

one more thing my friend i am not trying to dis respect  in any way or otherwise, although i am reading your post for last one month & also find most of them close to the reality but is just that i have a different prespective towards the same.

Come on bro; u are entitled to have your own thinking. If people with different thinkings dont come; how will the world march ahead. IF this wasn't so; then how come einstein,edison,newton would have come forward. Yaa; i also feel somewhat the same thing- right person in wrong person. First one year wasn't so bad at CA studies. Even since this uttam agarwal took over; life has been hell. Better and civilised to be aggresive on blogging; rather than impose my brawn on that incompetent selfish icai leaders. That doesn't suit a professional. Warna kab kaa uttam agarwal ka gardan marodd nahi detaa; jab woh mere city mein aaya thaa.

well my friend jose i take your point.

but yarr don't point towards UPA. As far as think all previous president done things quietly & he is one who was most expressive towards student & therefore mostly hated by student community. But he is the face you know that why you hate him but real picture is behind the sence.

Its in ICAI history, to make radical decisions upfront. Every prez just follow that process as our current prez is doing.

Sunil talati was a very good president despite cpt paper being leaked. Ved jain introduced 1 day gap during exams. TN manoharan sir brought out the concept of cpt. UPA is a ill mannered person who doesn't even respect his senior president and emminent CAs in industry(see that interview of CNBC which also had talati sir,and one very big CA in investement firm of birla or tata). He believed in totalitarian rule. Amarjit chopra is also now neglecting the core issues of students; and is doing nothing to address them. Just making a dull "derecognition" notification isn't enough.

Dear Surendra Sir,

Please find below my responses to your issues –

1. I have never heard a single request from a  CPT  passed student to make his career by giving proper guidance.

 

Nobody listens !  (For detailed discussion, please refer my article mentioned at the end of my discussion). 

 

They are more interested in coaching than in training. Thank God that now training will commence only after IPCC. This step taken by the Institute is towards improvement in training. IPCC qualified students will have no tension of studies and they would focus their attention on training.

Agreed Partly….I am sure after we have this website and your profile, you might start getting requests from students for guidance on choosing firms. But after you guide them, what do they do if they don’t feel comfortable? If they loose interest in the firm, what are the options they have? Do they have to ask their father to change his workplace and shift elsewhere to protect his fundamental rights, or should he hurt himself so badly that he goes to the hospital and is on bed rest for a few months?

 

2. If there is no worth in the Institute's qualification; how one can imagine that it can fetch Rs.70.00 Lacs to a fresh qualified member ? It means; he took right training in right manner at right place.  I already wrote that at the time of joining training; student don't bother because it is burdensome for them and they want to pass it anyhow. Very few students like you are so alert

 

I am yet to get the details of this 70 lac offer, I will get back to you on the same when I get the details about it. I have also heard about it, but I need some more information before I comment. More than ICAI, I will still say that the person who got it is great, competent and hard working. And he would have been as successful as he is in any area. CA degree per se has little to do with it. You yourself have mentioned earlier that knowledge is power. And you have given numerous examples in your life of people who are very successful with knowledge only.

 

 

. Each CA firm should be understood like an MBA institute.

If you join B grade firm; your training will be of B grade. There is nothing astonishing.

A CA firm is like a training institute and the CA Institute is like a University which make rules and conducts  exams only. 

If one takes admission in a C grade college then he will get the education of C grade only.(Exception is always there and it will happen only when a student deserves the best).

What is the fault of the University? If a students has just passed CPT by scoring 50% or nearabouts; then one can imagine what type of college he is entitled to. For students who scored 80% or more in CPT; the doors of good CA firms are always open. Agreed or not ? 

Completely Disagreed. The doors of good CA firms are always open, but only for those who have strong references. Off course, you will find exceptions. I myself got offers from 2 of the four big 4’s plus many other big Indian CA firms. I never had any rank or references. But I can tell you one thing with 100% confidence that good firms, especially big one’s – Indian as well as MNC are dominated to the extent of 80-90% by references.

 

4. Tell me which University  helps students in Education ? CA training is unique specially looking to its low cost - I claim.  Due to low cost it is affordable to every student who has a dream to be a renowned person.  

 

I praise the low cost of the course and learning. But is there any reason to stop a student from learning and pursuing what he wants to do? Why is ICAI behaving so nasty with students? Did you observe the body language of ICAI when they comment about students matters, see the recent announcement on their website for more details. I have good amount of experience of this arrogance of ICAI. When I wanted transfer two years back, the first time I went to the Mumbai ICAI office, for almost 2-3 hrs I was roaming up and down, nobody bothered. Further I was told that I have no choice but to go and work with my principal. When I asked them what if I am not interested, they had no answers. My article ship period has extended by two months because those two months I was busy in visiting ICAI offices, finally I had left the course and started studying for CAT. Only after two months, with gods grace I got hold of an influential person who got me out of all this. I can never forget the way ICAI behaved, and I know nothing has changed yet. Things have worsened.

 

I agree that there are certain lapses on the part of the Institute. But it does not mean that the fault is of Institute only.  Why transfers were banned ? Because of taking undue benefit by the students. (although It also questions the independence of the member that he used to give such transfer when influenced by  certain clients).  

 

Exactly, students did take undue benefit. But does that mean you ban transfers and give those undue benefits to members? You can have a neutral policy, which considers interests of both the parties. In this case, it’s a complete ban and its over done.

 

Our CA Institute is number  3rd  in the world -  in respect of quality !

 

Your statement is subject to lot of terms and conditions like the student who has passed 12^th std gets good guidance in selecting a firm or gets selected in good firm. Further he also feels comfortable there and the firm has all sorts of work and he gets good training, knowledge of all areas that he can take up 50 professions at a time (based on one of your article).

 

 

The motto of a CA is never to earn too much money. It gives dignity. When a CA conducts an audit then he  behaves  like a judge by giving his unbiased report.

 

Please refer to the open letter to Uttam Agarwal written by our respected past president Mr. Talati. You will come to know the motto of ICAI.

Please refer to the SFIO website and you will come to know how much unbiased CAs has been. Please check up the database of Income Tax department raids in the last 12 months. See the number of cases where the companies have been proved guilty and compare them with past trends, you will realize how honestly CAs have done their jobs.

 

One of the members had requested some information from ICAI through RTI route. I got the updates on that from him. Please note that he is a member of ICAI.

This is the reply - Sought details through RTI, of the many crores being spent on constructing ICAI buildings across the country for the last 2 years....this time ICAI bureaucrats requested for 2 additional weeks, as supposedly this data needs to be collected from all branches..2 weeks ended yesterday..yet to receive ICAI reply!

 

A week later - Finallyyyy got reply from ICAI to my RTI query...our Institute is constructing 58 buildings, from Kashmir to Ernakulam!! The ' incomplete ' estimated cost of these buildings given by ICAI is Rs 69cr! My ' complete estimate ' shows that figure around Rs 125cr!!! Above all, the President has sanctioned Rs 18cr for buil...ding projects under ' President 's Discretionary Fund. '

 

 

Regarding selection of the course and the training; you have not commented what I wrote earlier : "regarding purchase of a shirt by a student."

 

I think there is a huge difference between choosing a shirt and choosing a firm for articleship for a 12^th pass student. Choosing a shirt isn’t a difficult task as I believe that a 12^th pass student should have some degree of experience of buying shirts. He knows what types of shirts are available and what he likes or dislikes. A 12^th std guy unfortunately wont know anything about CA firms and articleship. Further, even after he is advised and he makes the decision, its not reversible. In case of a shirt, if he buys one, wears it and does find it comfortable he can get it replaced or at the max throw it away or give it to someone. Such steps are not possible in articleship. Once joined, for 3.5 yrs he has to forget his fundamental rights, interests.

To Aksh,

Its sad to see your sentence - Carrer But sir i also feel bad when people took there biased views and half knowledge upfront.

I never said CA practice doesn’t have opportunities. Since the very beginning I have mentioned this not one or two but many times that CAs are the only people who have value in accouting, auditing and taxation area. Our laws don’t allow anyone else to enter this area in any case. I am happy to know that your CA has got a good practice. In this forum we are not discussing about your CA or any one particular person as such. All the discussions on this forum are general. When I said that the ICAI has failed to keep CA practice lucrative, it is not based on my experience, but it’s the statistics of ICAI itself. It is ICAI who says that the number of practicing CAs have reduced. A group of over 500 CAs have come out with a white paper on this issue of CA practice no more being lucrative. They have hit out openly on big 4 and their activities. Besides they have even discussed some other issues. This whitepaper is made by over 500 CAs and not me. I will surely upload the whitepaper for your copy soon.

It is quite wrong on your part to call anyone half knowledge. It is you yourself who is not aware of many of these facts and you made a conclusion about others so easily.

To You and Surendra Sir – If my views are biased, what will you say about these things which I have posted  -

/forum/re-do-u-in-favour-a-dummy-articleship-is-only-to-relatives-27141.asp

/forum/re-aritcleship-or-degree-29687.asp

/forum/re-why-students-r-taking-dummy-articles--30409.asp

/community/ca-investment-banking-114.asp (see all the topics and my replies)