Hmmm...............

thanx a lott for this post

otherwise my frustation would come out here in a very bad way

now abt articleship

i m really very upset by the rules and regulation of articleship

timings.......very much

stipend .....less

then

boss...................apne papon ka bhugtan

transfer ban.......................the ever worst rule made on earth

then comes dummy................................. even worst word is not sufficient to describe this....................this is total partiality.

Originally posted by :anki
"	Hmmm............... thanx a lott for this post otherwise my frustation would come out here in a very bad way now abt articleship i m really very upset by the rules and regulation of articleship timings.......very much stipend .....less then boss...................apne papon ka bhugtan transfer ban.......................the ever worst rule made on earth then comes dummy................................. even worst word is not sufficient to describe this....................this is total partiality.	"

 

"Boss...............apne papon ka bhugtan"

ROFL!

But though you have described it funnily, I understand your pain....

i never meant that stipend is not a necessary factor. but v should nt expect too much-that is my point. the instt ll consider various factors n fix it. i may be wrong but this is just wat i feel... and as vidhyashankar had said abt articleship after clearing ca- i dont think it ll work out for students like me... i found articleship really useful ( agreed that all students do not get a gud firm n work experience ) but the scheme of practical training alongside with studies was n is really helpful. i cud understand concepts n how things work wen it s done practically... though this reduces the time availabe for studies, i feel the former s comparatively better...

Originally posted by :harini
"	i never meant that stipend is not a necessary factor. but v should nt expect too much-that is my point. the instt ll consider various factors n fix it. i may be wrong but this is just wat i feel... and as vidhyashankar had said abt articleship after clearing ca- i dont think it ll work out for students like me... i found articleship really useful ( agreed that all students do not get a gud firm n work experience ) but the scheme of practical training alongside with studies was n is really helpful. i cud understand concepts n how things work wen it s done practically... though this reduces the time availabe for studies, i feel the former s comparatively better...	"

 

The former is better only with the following caveats:

1. The firm has good over-all exposure to all areas in CA.

2. CA exam is in tune with the work experience being doled to students.

3. Work experience should act as an enricher to one's learning and not a pain or hindrance to one's progress in the career itself.(Just look around and look at how many students have openly commented on various tortures they have undergone and are under going under their bosses.Please read my reply to Neha.Unless you are in such a situation, you would not understand the plight of students).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, let me ask you a few question, how is the scheme of practical training helpful for CA Final students?(or even PCC/IPCC Students).Tell me? Does it have any relevance with what they are studying?

Say, a student is studying for accounting--amalgamation,valuation of shares and goodwill,liquidation,holding and subsidiary companies,etc.Does an average CA Firm(not your firm--your firm might provide you this and more) provide all this or atleats a part of all this?

Most of the firms are doing as per ICAI census only Tax work and a bit audit work (be it banks or companies).In this scenario what does work experience do--Nothing? but making the student commute,work,suffer.Yes, it is an experience for life and all that.I learnt how to handle people,how to bear insults form my Boss and yet manage to smile,how to go ahead in life with grit and determination,etc

But this is not some military training, we are white collar professionals and there is some deceny and decorum in how a professional course is run by a premier institution.This is simply not the way.

Maybe you are in a comfort zone and would not agree.I have no issues with that.Unless some outside the box thinking is done and empathy shown, one does not understand what someone else is undergoing or what the real scenario is.

 

Also,I again repeat, there is absolutely nothing wrong in demanding pay for what work we do.Fear is what holding back students.

Finally working after CA exams are over, with the flexibility of tranfer and with the monitoring regarding dummy by the ICAI if done, would be of huge relief to students.Who can then concentrate on work and learn whatever they have learnt theoretically bereft of exam pressures and insults that they are inferior creatures eating their heart,mind and soul out.

Show empathy, start thinking, then you would understand the value of my recommendation.

I commend that being a woman you have been bold enough to come this much and express your views.

I extend you my best wishes!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although the Transfer Rule is rubbishing and the Articleship a Nightmare for almost 70 % of the students, Stipend is nothing, and more over if you are an average student (as 80 % ) of them are in CA Course, you are almost out of your social lives and enjoyment and age factor is also there.

But, still Articleship is a necessity, there is a real need to put a check on Dummy Articles, but, not by restricting transfer. Somebody here said there is no need of ITT & GMCS, I think he/she may not hv done it or may not have enjoyed doing it, otherwise, this was a ruthless comment. GMCS is necessary and programs like these are real necessity in enhancing communication skills. However, there is real need to refine everything. U cant just keep chopping and changing the syllabus every year. There is absolutely rubbishing things going on, some practising people here suggested there is nothing wrong with the current system. He/She has passed out and in free to make such comments. So, I agree there are real problems for the students ahead.

Hello sir, I really subscribe to the fact that someone has posted in the discussion that there is no sense in barring the transfers as no one knows how a firm is going to be before joining it. Giving no transfer would be a kind of slavery and your whole three and half yrs (also approx. 10% of your remaining and only life that you have)would be put at the whole sole discretion of your ca who knowing this fact well would leave no means 2 exploit u. Even after having completed my 2 years articleship i'm not sure about whether i'll really be able to learn whats needed for practicing with effectively one year of articles rmng exld. PLs. We see drastic variation in the practical exposure of one article to other. Your prac. knwldge depends on the type of wrk your CA gives to you and not what shd actually be given to you.I've seen CAs who dont hesitate in giving their household work 2 the articles. I think that institute shd chart out a bare minimum list of things the exposure of which every article shd get and make the rules more amicable rather than one eliciting reluctancy. Sir, you shd really get into discussions for necessary modifications and make your reach to the governing body to implement them.

Harsh,

ITT is a joke.The intention is good.But what does the ICAI teach?

GMCS is a good course, this I accept but it must be after the CA course(and it is rightly so with an added distraction that students who wish to take it can do so during the course in the last even before clearing CA final).I have nothing against GMCS but ITT the content management is not good and must be upgraded.Yes, ITT is a must but it must be upgraded.

Rest of the comments I side you and Raguraman.

 

Originally posted by :Vidhyashankar
"	Originally posted by :harini " i never meant that stipend is not a necessary factor. but v should nt expect too much-that is my point. the instt ll consider various factors n fix it. i may be wrong but this is just wat i feel... and as vidhyashankar had said abt articleship after clearing ca- i dont think it ll work out for students like me... i found articleship really useful ( agreed that all students do not get a gud firm n work experience ) but the scheme of practical training alongside with studies was n is really helpful. i cud understand concepts n how things work wen it s done practically... though this reduces the time availabe for studies, i feel the former s comparatively better... "   The former is better only with the following caveats: 1. The firm has good over-all exposure to all areas in CA. 2. CA exam is in tune with the work experience being doled to students. 3. Work experience should act as an enricher to one's learning and not a pain or hindrance to one's progress in the career itself.(Just look around and look at how many students have openly commented on various tortures they have undergone and are under going under their bosses.Please read my reply to Neha.Unless you are in such a situation, you would not understand the plight of students). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, let me ask you a few question, how is the scheme of practical training helpful for CA Final students?(or even PCC/IPCC Students).Tell me? Does it have any relevance with what they are studying? Say, a student is studying for accounting--amalgamation,valuation of shares and goodwill,liquidation,holding and subsidiary companies,etc.Does an average CA Firm(not your firm--your firm might provide you this and more) provide all this or atleats a part of all this? Most of the firms are doing as per ICAI census only Tax work and a bit audit work (be it banks or companies).In this scenario what does work experience do--Nothing? but making the student commute,work,suffer.Yes, it is an experience for life and all that.I learnt how to handle people,how to bear insults form my Boss and yet manage to smile,how to go ahead in life with grit and determination,etc But this is not some military training, we are white collar professionals and there is some deceny and decorum in how a professional course is run by a premier institution.This is simply not the way. Maybe you are in a comfort zone and would not agree.I have no issues with that.Unless some outside the box thinking is done and empathy shown, one does not understand what someone else is undergoing or what the real scenario is.   Also,I again repeat, there is absolutely nothing wrong in demanding pay for what work we do.Fear is what holding back students. Finally working after CA exams are over, with the flexibility of tranfer and with the monitoring regarding dummy by the ICAI if done, would be of huge relief to students.Who can then concentrate on work and learn whatever they have learnt theoretically bereft of exam pressures and insults that they are inferior creatures eating their heart,mind and soul out. Show empathy, start thinking, then you would understand the value of my recommendation. I commend that being a woman you have been bold enough to come this much and express your views. I extend you my best wishes! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------	"

 

as u say, i agree that i ve not undergone MUCH harsh treatment frm my principal as i ve undergone just 1 1/2 yrs of training n m just 18. my firm considers these factors with CPT-PCC students. but there r close friends of mine who ve went thru such treatments-sum got transferred few yrs back n sum r suffering now. i really can understand their problems.

  and as for the training, i found audit useful... but i did nt learn accounts(maalgamation... watever u said) overall, it was a gud experience for me at an early stage... dis is wat i meant to say

Harini,

No I did not mean to discourage you in any manner.If articleship is interesting for you and works well, then you are very lucky.Just that Im talking of the plight of an average CA student who suffers with his/her firm.You must thank your lucky stars for having such a nice office.

You are doing great, and this is exactly the way one must be!Confident and upbeat despite all the negativity which one is surrpunded by and all the cribbing done by others.(and also internal cribbing by yourself to yourself!).You are an intelligent woman, I can tell from your posts; and am sure you will have great future.

My best wishes!

 

nothing in ur lines were discouraging. n thanx 4 ur wishes...

Originally posted by :Vidhyashankar
"	Dear Vidyashankar, I must say.. this is the first time i have seen such a topic for discussion which is drafted so well. My compliments.   As regards your question.. i feel that the current system is going on fine.. i would have prefered the system that was ongoing when u and me had passed out.. but then again.. we have to live with the policies of our peers.. whether we like it or not. But i would like to say one thing.. I still consider these sweeping changes as a part of an effort by ICAI to innovate and upgrade... its amazing how today we are considered at par with so many other institutes and i am sure that in the near future we shall be better than the members of institutes abroad.. mainly thanks to the gruelling system and rigour that we go through during our learning stage.   As regards the much debated point of banning article transfer... as a member of the practicing profession.. being completely honest.. it is slightly harsh.. but it has put to rest a lot of controversies and evils that was ongoing towards the practicing fraternity. at some places.. i know to clap you need 2 hands.. but during the boom time.. there was too much greed.. and something must be done to avoid such incidences in the future and thrust be emphasised on overall development of the students and the CAs.   Regards   CA Neel Majithia	"

Originally posted by :harini
"	of course there r drawbacks with tha CA scheme... i did my cpt n joined a firm. most articles there were those who had cleared their PE II n doing articles. i foud it so difficult to cope up with them during the audits(immediately on joining). literally, v cpt students dint know much things n moreover it might ve been a headache for those senior students to make us work.        i even heard that some firms were not ready to take cpt students as articles as most were 12th students n they lacked maturity, responsibility,.... now, a change once again-IPCC. u can do this after ur 12th n clearing CPT. the point to be notes here is that these students do not even have the MERE OPTION of going to college simultaneously or do articles so as to gain some basic knowledge before inter as in the case of CPT-PCC. how can students cope up with this? there ll definitely be a fall in the number of CA students- both in taking up the course and clearing IPCC to join articleship.     one other point i want to say is about the ITT. the aim behind educating students in IT is appreciable. but the way it is done-not much good. instt banned other private computer centres from providing certificates for this cause. that is ok n the instt is conducting batches n batches classes. but only 50% of the 100 hours is effective. apart from the theory classes for the first 2 hours, which if the student listens to, is useful. the practical class for 2 hours is almost not worthy. there is literally not much to utilise for 2 long hrs from whatever is taught. otherwise it is ok. the pre tests, online tests r fine.   Dear Harini, Please make it a point to write to the institute / regional office in your region.. they are looking for your feedback to improve the system.. to make it more user friendly and more pertinent and useful to all. You know after having read all these posts, I also request some of the students to speak to some of the professors at the ITT centres or other training centres.. they will have a very different story to tell.. stories which students do not want to hear.. some realities on both sides.. I would request Vidya to hear both sides and thereafter take a sound decision on what he would like to represent to the Institute.. remember the number of posts here do not represent the entire student freternity and definately do not represent the entire range of skill sets, talent, quality of students and members that come to ICAI.   Kind Regards   Neel.	"

Originally posted by :harini
"	of course there r drawbacks with tha CA scheme... i did my cpt n joined a firm. most articles there were those who had cleared their PE II n doing articles. i foud it so difficult to cope up with them during the audits(immediately on joining). literally, v cpt students dint know much things n moreover it might ve been a headache for those senior students to make us work.        i even heard that some firms were not ready to take cpt students as articles as most were 12th students n they lacked maturity, responsibility,.... now, a change once again-IPCC. u can do this after ur 12th n clearing CPT. the point to be notes here is that these students do not even have the MERE OPTION of going to college simultaneously or do articles so as to gain some basic knowledge before inter as in the case of CPT-PCC. how can students cope up with this? there ll definitely be a fall in the number of CA students- both in taking up the course and clearing IPCC to join articleship.     one other point i want to say is about the ITT. the aim behind educating students in IT is appreciable. but the way it is done-not much good. instt banned other private computer centres from providing certificates for this cause. that is ok n the instt is conducting batches n batches classes. but only 50% of the 100 hours is effective. apart from the theory classes for the first 2 hours, which if the student listens to, is useful. the practical class for 2 hours is almost not worthy. there is literally not much to utilise for 2 long hrs from whatever is taught. otherwise it is ok. the pre tests, online tests r fine.   Dear Harini, Please make it a point to write to the institute / regional office in your region.. they are looking for your feedback to improve the system.. to make it more user friendly and more pertinent and useful to all. You know after having read all these posts, I also request some of the students to speak to some of the professors at the ITT centres or other training centres.. they will have a very different story to tell.. stories which students do not want to hear.. some realities on both sides.. I would request Vidya to hear both sides and thereafter take a sound decision on what he would like to represent to the Institute.. remember the number of posts here do not represent the entire student freternity and definately do not represent the entire range of skill sets, talent, quality of students and members that come to ICAI.   Kind Regards   Neel.	"

Hi Neel,

It is onething to speak after qualification but it is quite a different thing to experience pain as a student and speak.Naturally, you would be supporting the ICAI because you are a member.

The professors of the ITT centres would definitely have something different to tell because, they are running the show! It is like asking a thief--"Did you steal?".The theif would say--"No!"

And if it is the students who attend such courses and yet they say something positive.It would be for the following reasons:

1. They are afraid of ICAI and the repurcussions.

2. They are 'buddies' with the professor or have some personal quirk for the course.

3. They want to say something different  t set them apart from their cribbing co-peers and thus portray themselves as someone confident and upbeat about things.(I just pity such students as they do more harm than good.)

Im not going to represent anything to anyone in ICAI.It is not a prudent course because the system as it exists now is not structured to work like that.My recommendations would most probably go to the bin.I have my own plan to move things about through people.

Also, you say the number of posts here do not represent the number of students who actually suffer and you quote further that the range of skills,talents,etc is not properly represented here.

Facts:

1. What you quote is a clever "statistical proof umbrage" as logicians call.You say some statistics and people are convinced.How do you substantiate the statistical sampling here? While conducting an audit samplingdo you see the entire population or do you go by the audit statistical sampling? How would you know that the number of students here do not match a cogent statistical smapling of the entire student population? Do you the know the number of students vis-a-vis their quality ratings?

2. I find that the sampling here of students with their woes in this 2 lac strong community of both students and members, to be quite enough to portray the scenario.

3. What do you exactly mean by skill sets, talent and quality of students?(The mootpoint here is students not members).What relevance does it have with the current debate of transfership,stipend increase and other basic issues germane to the course?How do you measure it too?

4. Im a member and have heard for a longtime what the other side of the fence is talking mainly and I too was in lot of misconceptions.It is only after interacting with students that I hear their plight and woes and it reminded me of my horrid days.

Thus, if you pinpoint and see, then your logical side fails.Students are the torchbearers for the future of the institute and I think you got Harini's message wrong inasmuch as chiding her to take it up with the ICAI as a complaint.Do you think a complaint from her will change the policy makers of the ICAI? Tell me honestly.Do you mean to say, they would sit up and notice, "Hey Ms.Harini has got a complaint against ITT course and thus we have to make changes?" They wont do squat against the system and would let it remain in statusquo.

What is the value addition they give by the ITT course, pray tell me? Other than boasting publicly that they are keeping pace with times.Even private institutions like NIIT,SSI,etc are giving much better Info-tech training than our institute.

It is just your professional ego as a CA which makes you say such callous things and support ICAI blindly.Do not forget that if the quality of ICAI dips, then all of us,CAs would go down the drain.Atleast I have other degrees and qualifications to bank on.

And, the quality of ICAI is in the hands of students(quality),Course content and management,Professional aspects,Member-student interaction and the Study materials and other technical knowledge sharing with students and members alike.

Please do not say in a cliched manner like all CAs "There is nothing wrong with the system"Just because we suffered and cleared, doesnt mean others who follow us should suffer like us and clear.That is a cheap thought.

Anyways, thankyou for the comment and if I have hurt you, Im terribly sorry.

 

May be these students should learn from somethin that is happenin in IRAN rt now.. get together and come on street..