WAT A SHAME THE PERSONS WHO HAVE SAID NOTHINGS WRONG WIT THE SYSTEM R THE CA'S....They r insensitive CA's..

i think it is no doubt tough to weed out all the problems 4m the ca course..

but ICAI can with the concsious effort try to rattionalise it more...

the members r given great powers nd respect...Student unionship is missing...They do not form part of thier dicision making...

Vidya sir u according to me is absolubtedly right tht change of name at various levels like CPT,PCC/IPCC is just the gimmick ...

it is a Marketing Stategy to rope in more students..HAHAHAHA ICAI is the profit making organization....

and i dont know abt GMCS, but definitely ITT is very disgusting-a time waste and lot of hardship for students...as ICAI has inadequate training centres..there is always the housefull board...

lastly i WUD thank u 4 posting such an interesting topic...

I am sometimes doubtful tht u r member of ICAI....coz u r so student friendly as well as rationale...

I have also heard that students go in for dummy articleship because of financial constraints...they join some Call centre in a city and send money to their families in their home town....I feel the ICAI should look into the real reasons why students go in for the dummy articleship.

Even Members who impart this should be heavily penalised, as a student cannot go for dummy articleship all by himself right ?

i tell u sumthing.... articleship is not available that easy.... i know so many people who r lookin for it but no scope was available so easy.. finally they ended... dummy articleshipss

i totally disagree with this point n did not expect vidyashankar, who has been putting forward good issues, to support this. CA articles, as every1 knowa, is being paid for the work he does. its not like any other job n remuneration for it. i dont say the institute should nt increase the stipend. but its not right to expect to earn from CA to pursue it. the course is not as costly as any other course(not considering the fees for optional private coaching classes).
 

i think articles should nt concentrate on earning.rather they should concentrate on learning from articleship and paid stipend fixed by instt or their firm.

if what karthik says becomes the case, den there may be more students preferring to earn on their own n study rather than students who have passion for CA.

 of course there r drawbacks with tha CA scheme... i did my cpt n joined a firm. most articles there were those who had cleared their PE II n doing articles. i foud it so difficult to cope up with them during the audits(immediately on joining). literally, v cpt students dint know much things n moreover it might ve been a headache for those senior students to make us work.

       i even heard that some firms were not ready to take cpt students as articles as most were 12th students n they lacked maturity, responsibility,.... now, a change once again-IPCC. u can do this after ur 12th n clearing CPT. the point to be notes here is that these students do not even have the MERE OPTION of going to college simultaneously or do articles so as to gain some basic knowledge before inter as in the case of CPT-PCC. how can students cope up with this? there ll definitely be a fall in the number of CA students- both in taking up the course and clearing IPCC to join articleship.

    one other point i want to say is about the ITT. the aim behind educating students in IT is appreciable. but the way it is done-not much good. instt banned other private computer centres from providing certificates for this cause. that is ok n the instt is conducting batches n batches classes. but only 50% of the 100 hours is effective. apart from the theory classes for the first 2 hours, which if the student listens to, is useful. the practical class for 2 hours is almost not worthy. there is literally not much to utilise for 2 long hrs from whatever is taught. otherwise it is ok. the pre tests, online tests r fine.

Ha! Ha! I would take that as a compliment and proof of my popularity.There seems to be such a face-off between members and students, which is really pathetic.One should support each other and not fight like this is what I feel.Members are akin to parents and students are akin to children of those parents.If parents dont care for their children,dysfunctional families set-in!And if children rebel against their parents in regressive ways then chaos sets in! Both are detrimental to the evolution of our profession.We must go hand-in-hand.I accept there are black sheep among the CAs but I also ask you, how many students are really serious and professional? They blame the ICAI for everything under the sun.Is this a correct attitude? One must be sane during insanity and insane during sanity, this is the mark of a genius(I sound like I contradict myself--One time supporting the ICAI and another time going against it.This contradiction apaprently happens because you take ICAI as the locus whereas I take improvement,progress,evolution,modification for the good,sophistication without compromising on simplicity and other related issues as the locus.There is no contradiction.I want the best--this is my stand.I take no sides.Tking sides is outright-silly.

Im student friendly because I have no airs  of being a member and also Im in USA away from all this nonsense.ICAI has till now not taken much action against PWC auditors for the Satyam case and this itself shows the way in which ICAI is behaving at the helm of affairs.Much of politics,caste games and North-South divide is now entering ICAI.This is what I heard informally.Im just maintaining my CA qualification and do visit the country every year and keep pace with whats happening.It is not the same as it is was in 90s.Well, now Im beginning to sound like an oldman! hahaha!

Yes, the way ITT is being handled is ridiculous.

Im interacting with the students to understand the pulse.I have something in my mind regarding starting a Coaching centre in Dubai or Chennai,dont know when or if that materializes.
 

Dear Harini,

I appreciate your comments.Who said the course is not costly.Just look at the number of coaching classes the students are going to and the number of books they buy.Yes, decidedly it is cheaper than MBBS or BTech, I accept that but it is not from cost-point of view that I sided his statement.It is from an incentive point of view.

Abraham Maslow's theory has on its topmost pyramid triangle,something called "Self-actualizational need".A student here needs this feeling of self-actualization, to feel professional.A professional does command salary.Even a mere BCom or MCom is getting better salary for lesser work than what students are made to do.In my days, we used to audit in and out of factories literally covered with cement and clinker checking inventory,dusting up old records(now it is fully computerized but that makes not much of a difference ), you are dealing with lot of brutes in the office(especially lady audit articles),etc.It is all part of the Game.

You then go on to say, "one should not earn from CA course". Why not? Is CA something of a sacred cow? Is it something god-like? It is a tough course no doubt but to give it two horns and demi-god like status wold make it even tougher.I played with those two horns and subdued the sh*t out of it.Dont go with such 'worshipful feelings'.We Indians have been slaves to every other damn race in this world because of such "holy attitudes"(not that I disrespect God.I love Divine Mother,Durga despite being half-parsee).First know the rules, then smash it to give place to new rules and a better playing ground.

Then you go on to say something regarding "articles should learn and focus on that"--Good, this is a nice attitude.I ask you how many have had a chance to learn well? Maybe you are lucky but do you think all are lucky and now ICAI comes with a new rule to not have transfers.In my time, when I dint like my firm I changed my firm to give me more time(I dont do any dummy) and no audit tours in cement companies.It helped me get a rank.

Students or for that matter anyone who does work, expects something.If someone is asked to clean a garden he or she expects atleast a chai cup.Also, do CAs or the company officials sit down and actually teach the students, "Ahem, this is how you gotta do posting, see these are the accounts my dear...come on take notes..."

ICAI blabbering about all these things official in their newsletters should not be taken literally.There is a smokescreen they employ.I got few days ago an SIRC newsletter meant for members to my Indian address.I see the CPE program is becoming a nice business and liason with hotelwallahs and ICAI regional centres.ICAI needs money for running their organization, dont students need some extra money to keep them happy and motivated? Is it a sin?

If you come to USA and Canada's accounting bodies and see how liberal,sophisticated and modern they are and how advanced they are you would wonder what the heck is the problem with our country's primier accounting body?.It made me so sad about our country's plight.No wonder, every attempt many Indians clear CPA exam easily.Though I did not excel in CPA, I managed to clear it easily.This was primarily because of work constraints I had.Infact CPA does not need even an articleship and yet CPAs perform really well in the industry.Well, I know one cannot compare apples and oranges(I mean one country's situation with another) but still...think it over and you will understand the relevance of my supporting.

If as you say firms dictate stipends it would be even more horrible.

Also, what is wrong in earning and studying? This attitude of sitting in colleges with parents hard-earned money is purely an Indian concept(I too have ben guilty of it).When I worked my ass off while doing my MBA, then I relaized how mature our western student counterparts are.You earn money, you know how to handle pressure and then study, I guess you would hone into a brillinat CA and serve your soceity and country well.

That is why I said in the beginning, think outside the box!

Ankit,

Im not biased either way.Im not student biased or member biased.This makes me one heck of an impartial guy.

The people who might have supported are Indian CAs and they have 'businesses' running here(I mean practice or working in a company) and no one wants to take up the cudgels with the ICAI.Who will dare to risk disciplinary action against their hard earned qualification? Why, even me...Im coming in an anonymous name.Will you do the same after you get the qualification? This is the question.Maybe I would not support the students if I had been a CA in India.
 

Also,CAs have professional egos which comes as a well deserved package to them with their success.It is there deep inside us.You might look down upon a CPT guy, a final guy would look down upon a IPCC guy,etc.

So, I guess we should focus on the main issue, than pecking on personal issues.Isn't it my friend?

One has to be professional,sauve,strategic,save one's skin and at the same time have compassion and ethics to survive in today's world.This is my personal take.

Articles are the greatest disadvantage with the institute. I does mean here the restriction the transfer and coaching timings.

The fate of the student depends on the firm he joins, but my question is where has the uniformity in education has gone?

Working hard for very low pay shows the control the institute has towards the students, who desires to complete the profession. Also the CAs will argue that there is no problem with the scheme in existence, no surprise in that as i will also do the same after qualification as it is natural for all to look at their hard earned qualification. Even here v just keep discussing and neither u or i will take it to the ins.

THE FOLLOWING I FIND NOT SATISFACTORY WITH THE EXISTING SYSTEM

           1) Articles period, it can be reduced to 2 yrs and pay can b increased

           2) Updating of syllabus is welcomable but changing the name of the course each day is not necessary.

           3) More educational institution has to come to educate the students.

there is nothing wrong in the system.

Im saying this to everyone.

My question was a toungue-in-cheek kind.

When I ask are you happy with the CA System

Then my expected answer is of a "created-crisis"---I do not want anyone,especially,students who will be the harbingers of future to be happy and comfy in comfort zones.

The moment you are happy and in a comfort zone, disaster happens because anything can happen anytime.Who knows Indian CFA might get popular one day and it is because of current pressures from ICAI to the government that Indian CFA is being troubled by legalities.If they catch up and exceed CA, then what would happen to us in job sector(maybe practice, one needs CAs).What about other Accounting bodies, if governments allow other Accounting professional bodies, then what about the Indian CA?

One needs to be a visionary in thinking ahead of times.As of now, certain things might look comfy and rosy.

Things would change and are changing.Pressures are being mounted by other bodies starting from the Corporate affairs ministry.

Indians were happy and in comfort zones, and consequently; from Barbarians to British, all came and looted our country and went their way.

"Happiness" is something internal and not a system-status-quo (which exists in a system).Systems thinking dictates for a continuous change and evolvement and this is to be done at a grass-roots level, starting from the students,how they are treated to what is the content in the CA course.Japanese excelled because of Kaizen Management.Kaizen needs such collective thinking and implementation on a day to day basis.ICAI can do well with Kaizen principles in evolving something better for

1. Students

2. Members

3. Society and the Business Environment

4. Accounting quality

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, say are you happy with the CA system as it is now? ;)

Vidhyashankar I appreciate your kindness in coming forward to help putting forth our suggestions/complaints in connection with our career. to the Institute. 

 I really hope and pray that your efforts bear fruit with the institute.

• In my opinion keeping a 1.5 year practicum with either the industry or a CA firm after clearing all the exams would be more beneficial(something like the CMA(USA) model) than the current system where the students dont get time to sit and study.Students who are lucky or who take dummy alone succeed in this game, these days.This is not a level playing ground as a result more and more become disillusioned and frustrated.Once they become CAs they show their frustration on students and community.This perpetuates a vicious cycle much to the detriment of the CA community.
• Syllabus updation as you say is a must and must be done on a periodic basis and not randomly leaving students again in the lurch.It must be done, say every 3 years.This would come in as a sense of relief for students and they are assured that no drastic changes would be done in the syllabus or content as it is and can be better prepared to handle the change when it comes.Also, feelers must be given before hand as to what changes are going to be made.
• ICAI must play a pioneering role in keeping cumpulsory education in their premises and accredited centres for aspiring CAs to give equal educational opportunity and exposure to all.Nowadays, greedy educational centres all over India squeeze students for what they are worth and many are disappointed with their results. They also influence the students who studied under them and cleared to write good reviews about them.All this becomes a vicious cycle.
• Information Technology and advanced software systems must be taught in the most professional and made mandatory for students to give them a competitive edge not only in India but also globally.This must be done at the end of the course and not burden them during the course.
• Changing names and appelations,introducing new courses(mostly for the sake of filling their coffers),confusing students who are in the old system about the new system,rumours about new systems,etc should be abhorred and avoided by the ICAI.What the heck of a difference does it make to change the name from CA-Inter to PE-2 to PCC to IPCC? Does it do any good to the student?This itself should show to any sane person that ICAI is merely involved in creating smokescreens and illusions to fool public,students,etc in a rhetorical manner-style without substance.I would just keep it like Entrancelevel, Level 1 and Level 2.This would sound more professional than all this assinine(read as dumbass) nomenclature.The sign of stupidity is the complexity involved and ICAI thinks it is smart by keeping the CA system so complex.It is inherent system stupidity.
• Course fees can be enhanced, giving sops to meritorious and needy students.Merit must be seen first.
• Stipend during the last year practicum must be made mandatory,fixed and reasonable and not some moronic nominal amount.
• Career seminars,public speaking courses,GMCS,etc must be made mandatory after the exams.The courses must come only after the exam to get the final coveted title CA.
• Members must be monitored carefully for any excesses committed to students.They collude with students to give dummy and thus both them and the students must be taken to task even if the above suggestions are implemented(some students might even go for a dummy during the last 1.5 year practicum).
• During the practicum period the ICAI must conduct cumpulsory seminars to attend to enhance their profesional skills relevant for job market.
• Books and other study materail needs to be upgraded.CDs,DVDs and other electronic material must also be supplied.
• Dress code and other professional ethics guidelines need to be emphasized.Comfort zones have to be broken here carefully considering the pulse of the members.
• There must be seperate cell which attends to student's woes.
• Student organization,team spirit,etc must be maintained.
• Alumni network must be carefully maintained and a detailed strategy must be charted to tap the vast alumni network both for funds for the ICAI and to help new members in their career.
• Less of politics,more of representation from all centres,etc must be given a green signal.
• Private coaching institutes which are accredited and made mandatory and must be monitored for quality.
• Women,physically and visually challenged students and members must be encouraged.
• No caste distinctions must be maintained in any form, else merit would get affected.
• Disciplinary action must be taken against erring members to keep the CA free of filthy members.
• Constant Kaizen management must be undertaken.This is the burning need for a vertiginous Indian economy.

These are the things I would do if I become the President of the Institute.I do not know if all these can be implemented but even if a few are implemented an ocean of change can occur.

Thanks Karthik.I appreciate your kind words.You have very good views being a student.Keep it up!

I also hope my efforts to influence some prime decision makers in the Institute would bear fruit.I have my connections.Im doing this also for my dead friend who suffered a lot under his CA.Im not blaming anyone other than the trucker who killed him for his death but it made his life so miserable and yet he succeeded fairly well.I take him to be the quintessence of suffering Indian CA students and vow to make some positive changes.

However I have my limitations

1. I myself am a member.And you know how it is in India.One cant be too vociferous and risk disciplinary action from ICAI.It has to be done consensus-ad-idem and tactfully.I might boast and rant here with this anonymous name but with my real name if I do such things it would be considered a sacrilege in India.

2. There is lot of politics behind scenes which students are not aware of blissfully.That is what irks me.Lot of caste denominations and North-South divide is slowly creeping in like never before.

3. Commercialization and money grabbing from students and members is also creeping in slowly with the glamour of the profession.Even in this economic recessionary scenario CA offers a stable job.

4. Im not in the country to move things often and come sporadically and for personal visits to see my father.One needs to be here and move things around the behemoth called ICAI.

5. Government influence and monitoring is also there and there is longwinding redtapism for everything.There is even an CA Act to look into.

6. ICAI has tremendous vanity(I dont want to name anyone) and thus this impedes professionalism.

7. It is a time-consuming process.

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I try influencing some people I know in the top brass.I will do my best.