As we all know ICAI's history in its management against students; this will be a hallf baked effort; started by a president and forgotten by his successor. ICAI needs a complete overhaul; not some puny changes just for an eyewash.
Ok. let's consider some scenarios. Suppose; i am an article having exposure only in statutory audit, and Income Tax(most common profile for articles).
1. Costing and finance: 200 marks; how my articleship will help me in solving the case studies of this subject. May be , making slips for conveyance of petrol
2. Audit: Case studies here are essential and welcome. Wont be a problem to any student( genuine or dummy)
3. Law: How my articleship will help me to counter questions on case study of FEMA or Money-laundering act? Yeh word toh maine office me bhi nahi sunaaa
4. DT: very much welcome. We file returns. Case studies relating to computations will be easier for genuine students. Rest of the topics will be same for genuine and dummies; as both haven't got exposure in things like Scrutiny;Block assessment, Raid, appealing,etc.
5.IDT: Excise and Customs ka esposure toh usually CA banne ke baad kisi bade CA k andar kaam karne se milta hain. May be only 0.05% of articleship may be getting practical exposure to this fields. They carry at least 60 marks. How will my tickaa-type articleship help me in solving such case studies.
aaaah, i get it. My boss always shouts at me as well as his assistant accountant; when i may be drifting towards a siesta in this blistering april heat; so that will help me in waking whole night during exam days. I get it, President Chopra
6. Accounts: Some help for genuine students. Otherwise, not much different. Genuine students don't prepare accounts for government,electrical and banking companies.
There fore, as per me, changing question format is welcome. But saying that this will give total advantage to genuine students over dummy is balderdash. Aajkal ke dummy rankers; jaroor ek saal jitna regular articleship karte hain. 2 saal dummy karte hain,, exam ke liye. Most of genuines have only clerical work or manual work.
jose.p
(CA in service)
(1676 Points)
Replied 20 April 2010
How did i forget MICS? In my articleship; i get to make flowcharts, and have got exposure to oracle, EDP,ERP-SAP. What a lovely dream........ So how will it help in case studies.....
November walon ki band bajegii. We are lucky because we can wait and watch and analyse the questions.
jose.p
(CA in service)
(1676 Points)
Replied 20 April 2010
He came to Ahmedabad and as per what i saw in the online web-sites; he talked to MR Modi for the benefit of CAs in Gujarat(ref. to gujvat); and except that students are no longer in the picture. Regarding to case studies; it is just old wine in new bottle. And if we see his interview in Taxmann's Corporate Professionals; he is beeming with pride ABOUT NON-UNEMPLOYABILITY OF CAs; SUCCESS OF RECENT CAMPUS PLACEMENT. Feel some shame; feel some pain for those hopeful freshers who were left high and dry by the ludicrous icai placement procedures.
Did u guys know that a candidate can have only one try at the campus placement irrespctive of the fact; u bag the job or not.
1 Like
Krunal Raichura
(Financial Advisory)
(2134 Points)
Replied 20 April 2010
I am still wondering how the Information Technology syllabus must have helped anyone to even learn how to switch on and switch off a computer! The IT syllabus which we have is completey useless, has no relevance.
Same with FM, stuyding definitions and using those words, but our syllabus is too stupid to really teach anything meaningful out there.
Strategic Management, a newly introduced subject is another example of what ICAI wants to do i.e. timepass. Six Sigma, TQM etc sounds great...but all that CA students would know is the definitions and some old literature given in books. ICAI shold have given case studies of atleast 5 companies which succeeded and 5 companies which failed in using these principles. It should have explained in detail about companies that have done these things in detail, with all the circumstances prevailing therin and all other relevant details...thats what differentiates MBAs (from good bschools) with CAs when it comes to management.
And with all this, CAs and many foolish CA students would go on and say that CAs are IT professionals and have good strategic management skills.......what a joke!
In short, I have only one thing to say that ICAI today is managed like the way Bihar used to be under the rule of Laloo Yadav. ICAI should start introduction of case studies with its own example, as to how the recent developments have degraded brand value of the accounting, auditing profession and CAs in the industry.
I am really glad to know that students are smart one and don't accept the things what is said straightway. After analysing only; they are ready to accept.
It is reality that training pattern is not unique although examination pattern is unique. I agree that training system is haphazard and all students don't get the same training as they are supposed to have.
Whatever subjects have been introduced in CA curriculum suit to those who get training at Big CA Firms. They see practical exposure of all the subjects when they do audit of big companies. The rest of students are not in a position to get the best.
But, I don't agree that CA students don't know how to switch on and off Computers. In this site also; there are lacs of CA students who refer it. What do we mean by that ? Various books are now available with CDs which is used with the help of computers. Taxmann and other publications have online updation programs which CA use frequently.
We cannot claim that we are expert in IT but we can say what is happening around us by reading IT subject. It is unfortunate that students just see the syllabus and don't see the practical use of IT. Same is there where they just try to read the subjects from books and don't try to see what is the real world. There are several books recommended with the CA modules which students never try to even see these books.
CA students are required to analyze themselves what is required to qualify for CA. Strategic Management can be practically utilized to get through in CA examination. Students can plan to score 70 plus marks in some subjects and rest of non-interesting subjects can be left for acceptable level of knowledge.
Students read subjects in depth with the help of suggested books by peers. But very few students refer even Audit Reports well. If they refer published Annual Reports of Big Companies with comparison of 3 years; they may get all the broad ideas which is desired.
How many students read Directors Report ? How many students refer NOTES ON ACCOUNTS? If students refer Annual Report's Notes on Account part seriously; I am sure they will know how Accounting Standards are practically applied.
They should remain alert all the time and discuss the matter continuously with other students. They should form study groups of their own.
If still students are not satisfied with the Educational System of CA then in my opinion they should adopt alternative education which is easily available.
If one business is not working well and it has tremendous hardships then it should not be continued; even a common man knows this who is not so educated.
CA profession is for those who have zeal to do all the things under one qualification. Although one cannot become master of all but still due to basic knowledge of all subjects; one would be able to switch his area of practice whenever circumstances so warrant.
Right now majority may not accept above views; but I am sure that after some years of their practical exposure in career; they all will realize the value of chartered accountancy course, whatever training they had.
HAVE YOU SEEN A CA WHO IS NOT HAPPY WITH HIS PROFESSION AFTER FIVE YEARS OF HIS QUALIFICATION ?
1 Like
Krunal Raichura
(Financial Advisory)
(2134 Points)
Replied 20 April 2010
Dear Sir,
If you carefully read my post, I have never mentioned that CA students or CAs dont know how to use computers. All that I have done is questioned the role of the ICAI Module of Information Technology in the building up of IT skills among students or members.
Like you rightly mentioned, lakhs of students and members use this website. I have been doing it since long. Internet for many like me is a lifeline. Right from work to entertainment, payment of utility bills, fund transfers, trading etc is done by internet. But I am sorry to say that ICAI module or the computer course hasn't taught me anything. I have learnt all these things from my friends, relatives and on my own. And I am sure thats the case with all. If someone feels that he has gained any working knowledge by reading the CA module, I would be highly obliged if you please share that experience. Please explain all of us as to how ICAI Module has helped you learn anything in computers?
Sir you also wrote - CA students are required to analyze themselves what is required to qualify for CA. Strategic Management can be practically utilized to get through in CA examination. Students can plan to score 70 plus marks in some subjects and rest of non-interesting subjects can be left for acceptable level of knowledge.
The point is that its not about interesting or non-interesting. Actually, IT and SM and even FM are very interesting subjects, but when one reads the modules of ICAI they become non-interesting. WHen you read about things like six sigma, tqm etc...but you have no idea about which companies put them into practice, what was the situtation before and after, which companies put it to practice but failed and why these principles didnt work for them etc, how will the subject become interesting?
I would also urge you to see the PCC IT Module, and if possible explain us chapter by chapter, page by page as to what you found interesting in it and how it is going to help us as finance professionals.
I agree to your points regarding students not taking inititatives to read audit reports etc. Those are surely valid. But as far as IT, SM and FM (event at ca final level) is concerned, I see serious flaws in our syllabus.
The point is one can learn everything on his own, read all the books available, make study groups etc. But then what is the role of ICAI, the role of CA modules in building the student? From your post I feel it is nothing.
You also mentioned - If still students are not satisfied with the Educational System of CA then in my opinion they should adopt alternative education which is easily available.
This is a very good suggestion. But what if a person has a wish to pursue the auditing profession? In that case, he will be forced to go to ICAI, do all this non sense sh*t, go through all hardships caused by the members abuse of their powers. This is not done. Then I feel the monopoly given to ICAI must be removed immediately and some deserving educational institutes like IITs, IIMs who take hell lot of efforts in builiding up their students skillsets and making them competent, be given the authority to conduct exams and supply capable individuals who can carry on this profession well.
One important question you raised - HAVE YOU SEEN A CA WHO IS NOT HAPPY WITH HIS PROFESSION AFTER FIVE YEARS OF HIS QUALIFICATION ?
I am sorry to tell you, but the answer is a big YES. I have seen thousands of CA's who are unhappy with their profession. They can also see that their growth is capped. Along with many other reasons, this is one more reason why thousands of CAs go ahead and do MBA, CFA etc. They realize it after some work experience that without an MBA, CFA, their life wouldn't move.
There fore, as per me, changing question format is welcome. But saying that this will give total advantage to genuine students over dummy is balderdash. Aajkal ke dummy rankers; jaroor ek saal jitna regular articleship karte hain. 2 saal dummy karte hain,, exam ke liye. Most of genuines have only clerical work or manual work.
This kind of things happens with regular articles all times. Only www.indishell.in can give a right response to this kind of things by hacking the website on which the official announcement regarding implementation of this scheme will publish by ICAI.
I am also not satisfied wat Chopra Ji has said abt Changing the syllabus to case study oriented bcoz most of the article in fact more than 90% who r doing their articleship seriously did not get practicle exposure in most of the feilds they are alwayz remain engage in filling returns or in doing voucher entries ...............there never got a chance to conduct company audit and abt excise and custom forget abt it ............even sum of them ask what is it yar...........how can they solve case studies on these topics .
Yesterday I met a guy who is in Final from last year and pursuing his training by going daily for 7-8 hours when I ask him how is your training going on he said wat training he is going to office only for doing "watchmangiri" he never filed a single return in one year never prepare a balance sheet I get shocked after hearing this then I asked him then wat r u doing there he said my boss has two paid accountants and I m there to help them in making totals and filling papers.
Again I get shocked that accountants who r only Bcom are in far more better situation than CA Final student and treating him as their employee.
Then he tell me that he is applied for transfer but did not get response after 3 months .............Now I want to say that how will he be able to solve those case studies what is his fault
I forget to mention one thing he is not getting the minimum stipend also he told me he has to take tutions to for his studies then I ask him when u get time to study after 7-8 hours of useless training and 3-4 hrs of tutions . Is this ICAI doing for students ........................from where students like him get practicle exposure.......................I think ICAI wnts students of Big Four and other big firms to be a CA .
jose.p
(CA in service)
(1676 Points)
Replied 21 April 2010
I forget to mention one thing he is not getting the minimum stipend also he told me he has to take tutions to for his studies then I ask him when u get time to study after 7-8 hours of useless training and 3-4 hrs of tutions . Is this ICAI doing for students ........................from where students like him get practicle exposure.......................I think ICAI wnts students of Big Four and other big firms to be a CA .
MAjority of the council members are partners of big 4 firms. And they call the shots while framing rules. So.... u may be right .....
jose.p
(CA in service)
(1676 Points)
Replied 21 April 2010
Yeah; agar sab kaam students hi karengee; then what use of using public funds for expenses of these council members. Then ICAI will be called as "White Elephant".
Small changes in syllabus is one thing; but major change and that too unfavourable ones against the rights of students during articleship is like stabbing in the back by ICAI.When we entered the course 3 years ago; we saw a different picture of the things to come by. But all these non-sense changes; trying to barter students as slaves in return of some votes to further their stay at council, is unacceptable.
And being in middle of these course with only a couple of years to go; we are stuck ; we can't leave it either. We surely wont leave it because those idiots messes our institute.
case studies toh ek bahana hain; under the veil of which manipulations will continue. MArk my words, bros and uttam ke sis.
And to conclude; jo CA banne ke laayak hain; mehenti hain; usko uttam ka baap bhi nahi rokk saktaa.
I really appreciate your arguments. I liked your presentation. I also read the arguments of my young friend Shubham.
Things are not totally in favour of all students, I agree. Almost 30 years back; the same situations were there. May be since inception of CA Institute.
Most of the students pass CA after 3-4 attempts. So in my opinion; they are general students who could not understand the logic behind CA curriculum. Although I have seen many a times that average looking students pass earlier than brilliant one.
In my opinion; "something" is there which requires to pass CA at the earliest. The hidden rule was never explained by anyone. Each student has his own strengths and weaknesses. So one should do his own SWOT analysis.
CA MEMBERS AND STUDENTS ARE REQUIRED TO PERFORM IN TYPICAL SITUATIONS.
For students; right now they are facing typical situations. It is said that present generation is well equipped with skills hence I don't think that they cannot perform in typical situations. That is why to qualify for a CA is also a challenge itself.
In our time; we also read SADP (system analysis and data processing) almost 28 years back when I got "darshan" of a computer after appearing for CA final. So regarding VISION; nobody can question about CA Institute. It realized that future is of IT. May be at that time; the word IT was even not known to many. The subject was tough as I remember. I also remember the Management was also written in one of the toughest language. To overcome the situation; I referred Koontz, Maslow etc. for organisation and management and Dr. Radhakrishnan (for human behaviour).
Institute wish to test whether students can really manage the tough situations at their own.
When you face tough situations while travelling; who will help you when you yourself don't try for getting help. Here you apply your mind to the best possible way and get over the problem. Isn't it true ?
Regarding auditing; there are several branches of auditing in addition to traditional auditing. System Audit, ISO 9001:2000 Audit, Environmental Audit, Internal Audit, Continuous Audit etc. etc. do not require qualification of CA.
Recently the Central Government has authorized CA also to conduct special Excise Audit which was privilege of ICWA only (This is the role of CA Institute).
Corporate planning is known as the key area of CS but CAs are more recognized in general. It does't mean that CS members are not doing well.
Why we ask for job market only ? CA profession gives you dual opportunity of Profession and Job. The value of CA can be recognized by only those who could not succeed it. They will explain in a much better way than those who passed.
If we think that the "system" should be handed over to some other institutes who take care of students; then I think there is a basic misconception in the mind of students that some other can do better for them. CA profession is such that nobody can help. Your own judgment is important to decide what to do to get success.
These are so many professional examinations as you know very well. All the time we compare CA with MBA and IT professionals. There is no comparison specially when we see the Entry Level Tests. The most brilliant but financially strong (to some extent) can go for MBA and IT sector. CA can be passed by an average student also who have passion to complete it.
In my opinion; a strategy should be adopted to "CHECK" which one or combination of some would be suitable to pass the subject - Institute's Modules, Suggested Answers, Coaching, Group Discussion, various Books and Journal .
I am sure; students can apply the above well. Otherwise they would not able to form an opinion about the books which they audit.
The students who just do ticking never try to see what they are ticking. While vouching; whole business secrets of an organisation come to your knowledge. Why one is ticking only - ...to pass the time....of training.....which is useless according to them....
So don't read only the subject materials. Try to think over it whether it is useful or not. If not, ask someone how they got through it. Again test the advice given according to your parameters (as you all are doing right now).
If students join CA and thenafter they realize that it is not so useful; then of course it can be said that they have developed their sense which they won't had before joining. Experience come from mistakes !!
AFTER PASSING CA, YOU BECOME A CONSULTANT. START DEVELOPING YOUR VISION SO THAT YOU WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL IN LIFE EASILY.
2 Like
Krunal Raichura
(Financial Advisory)
(2134 Points)
Replied 22 April 2010
Things are not totally in favour of all students, I agree. Almost 30 years back; the same situations were there. May be since inception of CA Institute.
They have always been in favor of Members. Jose had rightly mentioned in one of the post that SEBI Cant be run by stock brokers. IF that would happen, investors would never make money. The same is with ICAI, so long as it is run by its own members, interests of other parties would never be given due consideration and Hitler type rule would come. It is clearly visible today the way things are working at ICAI.
In my opinion; "something" is there which requires to pass CA at the earliest. The hidden rule was never explained by anyone. Each student has his own strengths and weaknesses. So one should do his own SWOT analysis.
“Something” here means to study all this sh*t. Students have done this forcibly. Sir, you wrote so many things, but I want to know how ICAI IT Module has helped anyone get slightest of working knowledge of computers. I also wish to know how strategic management module of ICAI has given any single student any working knowledge of the concepts they learn. Please refer to the CFA books or any publications from Aswath Damodaran and tell me why our FM syllabus does not match with the standards of other courses covering similar subjects and why our syllabus for all these three subjects is not in line with the todays world and industry needs.
In our time; we also read SADP (system analysis and data processing) almost 28 years back when I got "darshan" of a computer after appearing for CA final. So regarding VISION; nobody can question about CA Institute. It realized that future is of IT. May be at that time; the word IT was even not known to many. The subject was tough as I remember. I also remember the Management was also written in one of the toughest language. To overcome the situation; I referred Koontz, Maslow etc. for organisation and management and Dr. Radhakrishnan (for human behaviour).
I appreciate your hard work. If having these subjects can be called as vision of ICAI according to you, what will we say about the laziness, ignorant and arrogance of ICAI to update the syllabus and thereafter and the failure of ICAI to set up infrastructure for imparting training of IT among students. Only vision without actions is of no use.
Regarding auditing; there are several branches of auditing in addition to traditional auditing. System Audit, ISO 9001:2000 Audit, Environmental Audit, Internal Audit, Continuous Audit etc. etc. do not require qualification of CA.
Great! This is a value addition to my knowledge, I wasn’t aware of it.
Recently the Central Government has authorized CA also to conduct special Excise Audit which was privilege of ICWA only (This is the role of CA Institute).
Big deal, because anyways outside the purview of audit and tax, ICAI is not paid any heed. I had asked for the role of ICAI in building students knowledge...i wanted to know what ICAI is doing for its students. What you mentioned does not answer my question.
Why we ask for job market only ? CA profession gives you dual opportunity of Profession and Job. The value of CA can be recognized by only those who could not succeed it. They will explain in a much better way than those who passed.
Well, if ICAI would have been quite proactive and aggressive enough, 90% of the members would have not been into the job market today. We cant deny that there was a failure on the part of ICAI on this front.
As far as value of CA profession being realized by those not passing it is concerned, well that’s quite subjective. In my own family I have examples of people who never cleared CA exam, finally left it, they have 20 CAs working under them to do all their sh*t work today. I used to attend a tution sometime back for Tax. The real younger brother of the teacher never cleared CA exams whereas the teacher was a topper. He is still struggling to establish his practice, he takes tuitions…whereas his brother who left CA, did an MBA from an average bschool and is not the VP of one of the top brokerage houses of India (he is quite famous and I am sure everyone who watches CNBC regularly have seen him, so I wouldn’t like to name). When I meet these people, they tell totally the opposite of what you mentioned here.
If we think that the "system" should be handed over to some other institutes who take care of students; then I think there is a basic misconception in the mind of students that some other can do better for them. CA professionis such that nobody can help. Your own judgment isimportant to decide what to do to get success.
The second part is true that we only can help ourselves, but I am sure that when this system will be handled by people who live in 21st century and think beyond the poor “accountancy” and dirty tactics of getting cheap labour and exploiting students, life will be far better for us. No newspaper or agency would ever dare to write anything about a system which is run by competent people.Even if they do, atleast the system makers wouldn’t behave like our ICAI who is wearing bangles while reading all this. ICAI and the people there are spineless. They have not yet submitted their report on Satyam to government. When the world wanted to know what ICAI will do about all this, Uttam was enjoying the music and singers in the program of an accounting body!
In my opinion; a strategy should be adopted to "CHECK" which one or combination of some would be suitable to pass the subject - Institute's Modules, Suggested Answers, Coaching, Group Discussion, various Books and Journal .
This is right..well, if passing the exam would have been my only aim, I would have never posted a single message on these topics on any forum. We want a change. ICAI is still where it was in your time, but the world is far ahead.
So don't read only the subject materials. Try to think over it whether it is useful or not. If not, ask someone how they got through it. Again test the advice given according to your parameters (as you all are doing right now).
I did it, no one till know has been able to tell me how ICAI’s books have helped them learn anything as far as IT, SM and FM is concerned. All that I have seen on this website and outside are articles and tips of cracking CA exams as if its like a puzzle. Read this and that, study for .. hrs etc…no one has talked of understanding the subject, its utility…that’s fine, but the surprising thing is hardly any questions this idiotic syllabus.
PS - the things about these subjects like FM, IT and SM which I have mentioned are welll known to me. I have been fortunate enough to get good practical training, and at the same time work with people from various backgrounds like engineering, mba etc. I have case studies in my database for SM and have hands on experience with Corporate Finance. But in these issues which I have raised, I am doing it on behalf of my fellow friends who havent been as fortunate as I am to learn all this.
If students join CA and thenafter they realize that it is not so useful; then of course it can be said that they have developed their sense which they won't had before joining. Experience come from mistakes !!
100% right.
Krunal Raichura
(Financial Advisory)
(2134 Points)
Replied 22 April 2010
In certain subjects ICAI is making the intiation & balance can be aquired by self learning/experiance.
We can not get all the expeiances while studying, we have to keep some to acquire after qualification !.
But there is a big disparity between big4 & small firm regarding the experiance of articleship.
People are acquiring additional qualification not only because of unsatisfaction towards ICAI.....after getting the money and exposure (after getting a settling feeling) they want to continue the hunt for knowledge so that they can increase the horrizon for the knowledge.It depends on the circumstances also.....lot of people working, after completion of CA inter in gulf is trying & qualifying CMA & ACCA is not because of the unsatisfaction towards ICAI.........
What initiation sir? Just having a subject is not enough. It needs proper blend of good syllabus, infrastructure for imparting training. Surendraji says nothing has changed at ICAI since he joined. Even that time same thing was there. He learnt IT some 2 decades back, but it is only last year when ICAI woke up for building IT infrastrcuture.
Regarding reasons for other courses, I have clearly mentioned in my post - That along with many other reasons, dissastisfaction for CA degree is one of the reasons. Your points get covered there.
You said - But there is a big disparity between big4 & small firm regarding the experiance of articleship. This issue hasnt cropped up yesterday or today. Its there since ages. Keeping this in mind, ICAI should have streamlined its syllabus in such a manner that even those who dont get into big 4 have enough things to learn out of their syllabus. If the syllabus is outdated and so damn theoretical, its obvious that only a certain section of students will have good value in market. Not only that, but ICAI could have done something about this disparity by allowing transfers, but instead it added fuel to the fire by banning them.
Ganesh.S.Kumar
(Consulting Executive)
(852 Points)
Replied 22 April 2010
I totally agree with Mr.Krunal when he says "I appreciate your hard work. If having these subjects can be called as vision of ICAI according to you, what will we say about the laziness, ignorant and arrogance of ICAI to update the syllabus and thereafter and the failure of ICAI to set up infrastructure for imparting training of IT among students. Only vision without actions is of no use."
That is because anyone who has gone through the latest module of Info tech or MICS will completely agree with it.When ICAI was a visionary 30 years back then why is it now it is lagging behind in technology???
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