Originally posted by : Rubul
	Hmmm...So if no accounting body introduces SAP as a part of their course than ICAI should also follow same, so if engineers can acquire additional skill sets after their degree (for eg. a mechanical engineers learns .net and php and thereafter gets a job in TCS or Wipro) than why CA students should be an exception, so if engineers are facing oversupply problem than why CA(s) are not enjoying that heat...it is like answering an allegation with a counter allegation And the best is giving examples from IIM, XLRI, or a person getting 36 lakhs a year or month or this that...Dear all, exceptions are always there. IIM, XLRI or CA qualified enjoying salary of 36 lakhs and all are exceptions. These are not common. And if, even after being a CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT we have to be an exception than I guess............what can I guess you all know this means.....KHODA PAHAR NIKLI CHUHIYA :D I am not denying the fact that many CA(s) lack critical analysis and thinking but this is also true that CA course is not that lucrative at present as it was in past and acquring new skill sets(apart from accounts/finance) will only degrade it like the engineering profession. Already recruiters are now demanding qualification like "An ideal candidate should be a CA plus CS/CWA". And I am very happy to see some really cool suggestions to make CA course again lucrative like introducing SAP or interaction with other universities etc.

u got my point bro.

Originally posted by : Rubul
	Hmmm...So if no accounting body introduces SAP as a part of their course than ICAI should also follow same, so if engineers can acquire additional skill sets after their degree (for eg. a mechanical engineers learns .net and php and thereafter gets a job in TCS or Wipro) than why CA students should be an exception, so if engineers are facing oversupply problem than why CA(s) are not enjoying that heat...it is like answering an allegation with a counter allegation And the best is giving examples from IIM, XLRI, or a person getting 36 lakhs a year or month or this that...Dear all, exceptions are always there. IIM, XLRI or CA qualified enjoying salary of 36 lakhs and all are exceptions. These are not common. And if, even after being a CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT we have to be an exception than I guess............what can I guess you all know this means.....KHODA PAHAR NIKLI CHUHIYA :D I am not denying the fact that many CA(s) lack critical analysis and thinking but this is also true that CA course is not that lucrative at present as it was in past and acquring new skill sets(apart from accounts/finance) will only degrade it like the engineering profession. Already recruiters are now demanding qualification like "An ideal candidate should be a CA plus CS/CWA". And I am very happy to see some really cool suggestions to make CA course again lucrative like introducing SAP or interaction with other universities etc.

You took my comments the other way. I said if Communication skills, Verbal Ability are the problems which CAs are facing in comparision to the other professionals, then ICAI/Students can make an effort.(Yeah, those Cool suggestions). After reading the last paragraph, a new question popped up in my mind "Is CA degraded because or Orientation, GMCS and ITT sessions. If not, how will it get degraded if someone introduces these additional courses?(As Optional/Not mandatory courses)". Please spot those "Allegations" in my past comments, I will provide you substantial proof. I don't jot every random thing that comes to my mind. 

And nothing remains permanent. I don't think any one here would be unfamiliar with the respect which Engineers especially IITians used to get in the late 80s or 90s. Is it even the same today? They are now facing tough competition from other good Private Engineering College students and the best ones are facing competition from the Global ones. A Guy from a private Engineering college in Vishakapatnam got a Crore package. Well, not for his stellar academic record or grades in his high school but for the Skill sets and Talent. So it is not the case of being an exception, it is to know the requirements of market and moulding oneself accordingly.

Now the World has become a global village and we can't live on myths/hypes any more. An ideal manager/professional who does the things in SMART(Specific,Realistic,Attainable, Relevant and Time-Bound) way. And you can see that I've stressed on the word "Realistic". I haven't said anything like "ICAI should follow the other Accounting bodies and make moves accordingly". I only said the duties of a professional body like ICAI are different and we have a very narrow perspective. Any change will show an effect on 10 Lakh students and I don't think there can be a change which is only ideal for a few set of students. 

Approach the things which I've said like a Recruiter. Step into a HR's/Your Client's shoes to get my views correctly. Well, recruiters don't need the ones who are fond of adding a lot of suffixes and prefixes to their names, they only need the ones who can and who are willing to work in their organization. And they prefer long term association. 

Clarifications:-And the best is giving examples from IIM, XLRI, or a person getting 36 lakhs a year or month or this that...Dear all, exceptions are always there. IIM, XLRI or CA qualified enjoying salary of 36 lakhs and all are exceptions. These are not common. And if, even after being a CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT we have to be an exception than I guess............what can I guess you all know this means.....KHODA PAHAR NIKLI CHUHIYA :D

How does a big Fat pay cheque mean 36 Lakhs? How does it even mean the highest package? It can even mean 15 lakhs or perhaps even lesser. And I even said this "They will pay a CA Fresher exactly the same if he/she has all the skills required for the job"  The concern which I have raised is not oversupply, but the minimum required skills. Please don't use Hindi Proverbs, I had google the phrase to know the meaning.

@ abhishek Agarwal & Rubul

Hi there is already a course offered by ICAI on SAP. Pls check this link https://www.icai.org/post.H T M L?post_id=2439 The fees for this course is approx 1.5 lacs(at a discounted rate). Do u want ICAI to make it mandatory and force all CA students to shell out 1.5 lac when only a few of them would be actually working in SAP line of work..? Or are u saying that ICAI should offer this course totally free and bear the cost of training all by itself for the benefit of the student community ???? (the fees collected by ICAI is paid over to SAP India and ICAI doesnt take any profit out of this course). 

Hi guys the above link isnt working..I guess there is some issue with caclubindia. U can just google with key words 'sap chartered accountants' and u will get the link. Or else u can copy and paste the above link and replace the word 'HTML' which is in CAPITALS with small letters. When I post the link in the forum, 'H T M L' appears in ALL CAPS although it is actually in small letters..Dont know why..

yes i m willing to shell out 1.5 lac for SAP. And please note that if SAP is made mandatory for all than there will be "economies of scale". I really don't know what will be fee at that moment but yes one thing for sure is that "value addition" will be much more than GMCS, ITT & ISCA (even costing as a subject in final seems irrelevant to me, upto PCC/IPCC is okay for me.)

Don't you feel that no one complaints for accounts, audit or law but many (i will not say majority) complaints about ISCA, institute and sudden increase in no. of CA's in the market. I mean to say that these people (although not represent majority, but neither too few in no.) have some valid points in their view point??? 

Anyways greatest buddy I am not here to argue. But i felt that your choices of words are aggressive. You are more into argument rather than discussing. And thats why I have used sarcastic lines. You are may be right in your own sense and I am right in my own sense.
(But as you can see that majority is with me, so I WIN….YEAH :P :D)

Originally posted by : Rubul
	yes i m willing to shell out 1.5 lac for SAP. And please note that if SAP is made mandatory for all than there will be "economies of scale". I really don't know what will be fee at that moment but yes one thing for sure is that "value addition" will be much more than GMCS, ITT & ISCA (even costing as a subject in final seems irrelevant to me, upto PCC/IPCC is okay for me.) Don't you feel that no one complaints for accounts, audit or law but many (i will not say majority) complaints about ISCA, institute and sudden increase in no. of CA's in the market. I mean to say that these people (although not represent majority, but neither too few in no.) have some valid points in their view point???  Anyways greatest buddy I am not here to argue. But i felt that your choices of words are aggressive. You are more into argument rather than discussing. And thats why I have used sarcastic lines. You are may be right in your own sense and I am right in my own sense. (But as you can see that majority is with me, so I WIN….YEAH :P :D)

Hahaha.

No, bro. I am not here to argue and sorry even my choice of words made my comments look aggressive. Okay, I agree with most of your points.

But not with the line "Sudden increase in no. of CA's in the market".You have just stated a fact and there is nothing wrong with it.

Also, check the pass percentages of other similar courses like ACCA,CPA, CFA etc. My point is not to make the course easier but if a student deserves a score he should be given. A meritorious student should never be a victim of these "Pre-controlled/decided Pass percentages". I think a union cabinet minister has already given a clarification on Pass Percentages, so I will not dig deeper.(Saw it on Facebook, apologies if incorrect)

And yeah.. You win.(You've got good sarcasm, mate. Please don't use those hindi proverbs again, I can't understand). 

Do you think the syllabus is redundant?(Referring to the last line of first paragraph and second paragraph of your recent post)

Originally posted by : Romil
	The whole fault is on the part of institute ... had the institute controlled the no. Of CA's in the market .. this wouldn't have happend

For instance, let us think of controlling the pass percentage. Answer these questions:-

What will be your reaction if you end up getting failed?

What if you lose by a very thin margin?(Say 5-10 marks)

What if you fail continously for 3-4 times?

CA students are very industrious and they should get what they deserve. 

P.S:- Union Minister Shri. Arun Jaitley has already clarified that there is no government's/ any other statutory body's role in Pass percentages. Also, if any of my comments sound harsh, I sincerely apologise. 

Originally posted by : Rubul
	yes i m willing to shell out 1.5 lac for SAP. And please note that if SAP is made mandatory for all than there will be "economies of scale". I really don't know what will be fee at that moment but yes one thing for sure is that "value addition" will be much more than GMCS, ITT & ISCA.

If u are willing to spend 1.5 lacs, u can of course join the course. But the thing is everybody doesnt necessarily have the same willingness or interest. It isnt only about willingness. Many shallnt be able to afford 1.5 lacs irrespective of the value addition the course brings to ur CV. And there is a limit to the 'economies of scale'. The actual fees is around Rs.2 lacs which is already cut down to 1.5 lacs. Even if SAP India gives ICAI students a generous discount of 50% on the actual fees(considering the 'economies of scale'), u will have to still pay around 1 lac. And 1 lac is a huge sum for many among us. The other point is that all the recruiters in campus, who select CA freshers as SAP consultants, provide them free training in SAP. In such a scenario, any sensible CA fresher would first wait for the campus placement to get over. In case he isnt selected as a SAP consultant and doesnt get any other good job on campus or off-campus, he can at that point of time opt for the SAP course by ICAI(as per the above link that I have provided, the SAP course is offered to both members and students). Why should he opt for the course earlier(at a time when he will be getting free training in case he is selected in the campus as a SAP consultant)? So what I am saying is that majority of the students arent really going to benefit from compulsory adoption of SAP..It is better to leave it to individual choice.

P.S. Pls dont expect a smooth ride after completing the SAP course. As a fresher in SAP, u may have to struggle for a while before getting a job in SAP line of work. Be prepared to be patient. Actually yesterday I happened to visit a forum on net for SAP professionals. When we are here discussing about the employment problems faced by many fresher CAs, the SAP guys there were also sharing the same concerns. Many of the SAP freshers in that discussion forum were finding it difficult to get placed. According to them, companies were asking for SAP professionals with prior experience.   

@ greatest Thanks for understanding that it is only a personal opinion and so I will not stretch the issue of “sudden increase in no. of CA”. Regarding costing -: No the syllabus is not entirely redundant (except standard and budgetary control). But it is irrelevant to me because till date, and I hope in future also, no recruiter had asked me a single question regarding Costing, like "how will you allocate overheads or this that bla bla". And if any organisation has a position vacant for costing department than why they will choose a CA, they will definitely go for a CWA. Indeed a CA should have knowledge (not expertise) in costing like product pricing, cost reduction etc that is why I said it should be upto IPCC level and in final only the core fields of CA which are taxation, accounting, Auditing And company Law should be there. Further I found that Costing in Final is 80% purely mathematical and only 20% conceptual. Except OR, relevant costing and Activity based costing there is nothing new in final level costing. What institute is doing is drafting advance level questions based on concepts of PCC. And also this advance level costing is nothing but a mixture of confusing statements, which are not easy to interpret, added with lengthy calculations. And if at all institute feels that a CA should have knowledge about these 20% topics than this can be included in Accounts itself. Already in Financial Accounts we are studying some topics, which are not purely related to it like Human Resource accounting, Value added statements etc. Hence adding these 20% topics (topics only, not the complex question) will not be that burdensome for students if costing is removed. Another option (And seems best to me) is Introducing IFRS as a compulsory subject in place of costing and adding the 20% conceptual topics of costing to it. Again by this way value addition will be much more than that would be derived from costing as a subject. Since in many advertisement/offer for vacant post I found the line "Knowledge about IFRS is a must/preferred/desirable" and only in rare of the rarest case I found someone mentioning "Knowledge of costing is must".

There are many points, which I want to write but than it will be an article rather than a comment and also due to lack of proper words I am not able to explain myself. Still I hope I am able to convey you my thoughts for this subject.

@ jithin after reading your comment I am of the opinion that either my knowledge about SAP is completely wrong or may be you have incomplete knowledge. Hence I will reserve my comments on this issue. Still I want to quote that till date I had never met an experienced accountant with knowledge of SAP (I am referring to experienced accountant not SAP experienced accountant) sitting idle at home. Hence this is my personal opinion that knowledge of SAP will enhance pay packages of CA. Further I want to point to you also that recruiters quote “Knowledge of SAP is desirable/preferred/must” but never saw any recruiter mentioning “Knowledge of IS audit is must or SDLC is must or something like that” for a position in accounts/finance department.

OOOPS....Suddenly I realised that the orginal topic is flushed down to the gutter and now the discussion is something else :D

Originally posted by : Rubul
	@ jithin after reading your comment I am of the opinion that either my knowledge about SAP is completely wrong or may be you have incomplete knowledge. Hence I will reserve my comments on this issue. Still I want to quote that till date I had never met an experienced accountant with knowledge of SAP (I am referring to experienced accountant not SAP experienced accountant) sitting idle at home.

I guess u are referring to the latter part of my comment(the postscriptttt). If it is about the postscriptttt, then it must be the 2nd option-I have incomplete knowledge of SAP. I just conveyed to u thru the postcript the I impression I got after reading the comments of some guys in a forum related to SAP FICO. And I am referring to the guys who have just finished training in SAP(they may or maynt be experienced accountants) and who dont have any previous experience in SAP domain. I guess majority of us CA students, if we get trained in SAP, come under this category. I know we cant judge a course by what people say in forums(best example is this forum thread's heading) but neverthless thought it worthwhile to mention since we were having a discussion about SAP. This is the link which I was referring to https://scn.sap.com/thread/1698146  Also pls check this link..u may find it useful https://scn.sap.com/community/training-and-education/certification/blog/2012/06/13/top-10-myths-about-sap-certification

No bro my opinion is not based on your post scriptt. Truly speaking, I have never heard of any post like "SAP CONSULTANT" in accounts/finance profile, this may be due to the fact that I have limited knowledge about SAP.

2nd thing is your reference to training given by companies, what I heard from different friends is that, co. trains you how to do data entry in SAP. The type of training I am referring is something else (like how to generate tailor made reports, flow chart to be given to programmer and many things related to development and customisation of SAP). If I start to write what type of training I mean than this post will be too lengthy and as I said that I have 2nd hand knowledge and that too from otherwise source AND AFTER VISITING YOUR LINK found some terms like end-user or SAP consultant which I have never heard, hence it is wise not to comment on this.

By the way even in your link in the very 1st point author has written "it is recommended to have the domain knowledge in particular functional area". And that is what i said SAP experienced and Experienced accountant both are different things. He is refereing to domain knowledge in particular functional area like payroll, Accounts Payable or receivable etc. Again asserting on the fact that my knowledge is really different from what it is stated in the link, Hence this whole post may be piece of garbage so ignore it :)

But yes the fact mentioned about recruiter is my personal experience here is a link in which you can see a recruiter is searching for a candidate with knowledge of SAP just have a look at the package and the package offered is above the salary of an Average qualified CA and most important thing is recruiter's minimum educational requirement is B.com only. This is what I want to convey, ISCA as a subject is not going to pay you but SAP as integrated course will definitely add some extra bucks in your salary   https://jobsearch.naukri.com/job-listings-Officer-Accounts-PLACEWELL-SOLUTIONS-Delhi-NCR-National-Capital-Region--2-to-5-years-010115000715?xz=0_0_25&xid=102253^ym^15499543&f=-010115000715