Originally posted by : jose
	It seems that ICAI has started recruiting students especially toppers/rankers to spread propaganda on the usefulness of articleship. The latest kid to join this bandwagon is Vikesh Mundhra, June 2009 Final 3rd ranker. All of you must have read his article in the student’s newsletter of March 2010 and after reading it title “Articleship Training –some PROFESSIONAL TIPS”; you would expect some logical sequence of arguments against prevalent notions by dummies/semi dummies or even genuine ones who are shouting at ICAI about  reducing articleship. Reading the article, I honestly found that the essay was like written by a class 10 board examinee in English, especially those who didn’t like the topic to write 300 words; but has to do so to get marks; similarly here it seems that ICAI “requested” him to propagate the “usefulness” of articleship;and he complied “grumpily”. First of all, see his English and his grammar, which after editing also as shortcomings. Read the first paragraph in bold; and ask ur English professor at college preferably some South Indian from Chennai(their English is awesome). In the first introductory para in bold letters; he says that he is gonna reason why “articleship period is so long?” You read the whole article, you still wont find any valid argument. It seems after lots of brainstorming ; he has found 4 points. CS is equally competitive profession and their syllabus is not inferior to that of CA; if not less voluminous. Their articleship period is 1.5 years; so Mr Mundhra, are u saying that a)      They are lots less competent kids that new CA passouts b)      They have less practical approach. They are mere bookworm and rott-learners c)       They have less knowledge d)      Unkii career is equivalent to that of roadside- bhutta seller. And lemme say something which may sound disgusting but might support your view. <Moderated>   In the case of articled assistant; let that how many years of abuses, exploitation by the member and there being no scope of transfer; let your life continue to be ****** by the jerk and just keep signing of Form 108 in mind. Is it, mr mundhra?   And read the new head of BOS; he says that “time and time again; toppers have told about importance Of articleship. And after 30 pages; we have vikesh’s article.   Disclaimer: The above points are in jest and not written towards any caste,religion, creed. And vikesh bro; holi hai bhai holi hai; buraa na mano holi hain.

 ROFL...That was raw.

Thanks for the subtle/inuendo compliments on the English skills of Southindians.

The fact is,I was totally ******** up during my articleship period.(Please excuse me for the use of an expletive here,I just wanted to let my hairs down here a bit...inspired by Joseji! Hehe!)

My auditor made me work like a slave,sending a greenhorn student like me alone on audit-tours to Alangulam,Ariyalur(with no audit program or plan) and shouting his throat hoarse when nothing substantial could be done by me and punishing me for that by making me do some extraneous house errands.

However,I changed my auditor.I got a transfer.It was those good old days when I was lucky.Infact,I did not know that I could tranfer.I went to ICAI,Chennai and then said I could do it.I was waiting for an opportune moment.

My first auditor was particularly abusive and shouted at me with highly expletive verbal bombs.One day I really thought that the proverbial 'camel had already borne the last straw' and gave my piece of mind(well, some choicest abuses to him to stun him,gently put) to him.It had the intended effect which I had in my mind.I did not over-do it as he could have ruined me.

He promptly asked me to get a tranfer and OH! Man-o-Man! I was really glad and got a transfer to a saner,kinder,more co-operative CA who gave me wide-expsoure in all fields of audit(not making me sit just before an Income Tax return or in the Bank) and also ample leave for my exams(3 months--unheard of in my friend's circles! those days!).Hullelujah! Miracles do happen.

I guess many would have been through this...There is nothing unprofessional or professional about this.If there is injustice,it does not mean one should go through it and put up with it and read stories of bravado and inspire oneself to bear it.I commend Jose's guts to come out open and inspire students.(However,I advice Jose to refrain from using 'raw' examples like the Prostitute one as the intended reader would be put-off by such examples(especially in a professional forum like this where many students/professionals(not minding a few blacksheep) come here to read something to inspire them or inform them)and would react negatively to it.Also,if you analyze cold-logically,there are lot of differences between a call-girl and an articled clerk.Emotionalities maybe inside your mind but one must find a proper medium/expression to express it,else it just boomerangs back on us.Im not 'advicing' you,just want your high-energy to be of good use when you become a CA and useful to our country and students.)

This fight between the student and auditor seems to be based on pure ego and nothing else.

There is a book called "The Dip" written by Seth Godin.He mentions there that professionals create a greater Dip once they qualify and make things tough for people after them to succeed.

However,the reselient student who survives this and succeeds must also take a cue that he or she must treat his or her articled students properly and in probity.

The current ban on transfership is most draconian and most unfortunate.If one wants to curb "dummyship" there are other ways to do it,this ban puts genuine cases to great hardships.

The difference between India and other Western countries including USA and Canada where I also worked is that:

In India: A person is believed to be guilty unless he proves himself to be innocent.

In the rest of the countries: A person is treated as an innocent person till evidence mounts that he is otherwise.

(There is an interesting book which I read recently on these germane matters by V.Raghunathan(a southindian prof working in Italy) by name: Games Indians Play)

I do hope when Jose becomes a CA and intends to practice,he would definitely treat his articled clerks well.

The whole system has to change.

Originally posted by : Abhishek
	LIFE DOES NOT END WITH 3 YEARS OF ARTICLESHIP. BUT IT ENDS 3 PRECIOUS YEARS OF YOUR LIFE.

Dear Abhishek,

I understand your feelings. 

...> It ends 3 precious years if you accept defeat...You are really defeated if you accept defeat<...

Those 3 years too can be put to great use in understanding how resilient one can be.

Just imagine the cadets in NDA or the story of Captain Gopinath(the founder of Deccan Airways--read his autobiography--"Simply Fly" to get inspired).

So be brave and confident.Yes,life is tough but we have no option but to face it bravely,fight where it takes to fight,hide when it is unwise to fight,strategize when it is time to act.

Himmath na haaro,himmath hi sab kuch hain is duniya mein.

My best wishes,

Mythreya

Originally posted by : Mythreya
	Originally posted by : jose It seems that ICAI has started recruiting students especially toppers/rankers to spread propaganda on the usefulness of articleship. The latest kid to join this bandwagon is Vikesh Mundhra, June 2009 Final 3rd ranker. All of you must have read his article in the student’s newsletter of March 2010 and after reading it title “Articleship Training –some PROFESSIONAL TIPS”; you would expect some logical sequence of arguments against prevalent notions by dummies/semi dummies or even genuine ones who are shouting at ICAI about  reducing articleship. Reading the article, I honestly found that the essay was like written by a class 10 board examinee in English, especially those who didn’t like the topic to write 300 words; but has to do so to get marks; similarly here it seems that ICAI “requested” him to propagate the “usefulness” of articleship;and he complied “grumpily”. First of all, see his English and his grammar, which after editing also as shortcomings. Read the first paragraph in bold; and ask ur English professor at college preferably some South Indian from Chennai(their English is awesome). In the first introductory para in bold letters; he says that he is gonna reason why “articleship period is so long?” You read the whole article, you still wont find any valid argument. It seems after lots of brainstorming ; he has found 4 points. CS is equally competitive profession and their syllabus is not inferior to that of CA; if not less voluminous. Their articleship period is 1.5 years; so Mr Mundhra, are u saying that a)      They are lots less competent kids that new CA passouts b)      They have less practical approach. They are mere bookworm and rott-learners c)       They have less knowledge d)      Unkii career is equivalent to that of roadside- bhutta seller. And lemme say something which may sound disgusting but might support your view. A prostitute or ra#$d* who will find it very physically and mentally demanding, revolting and abhorable when she starts f$%$cking with her clients initially. But as time passes; she is used to all that agonies; then she doesn’t mind rather she only has her sole aim or incentive in mind ie the money given by the client for their 20 min of pleasure. Similarly, in the case of articled assistant; let that how many years of abuses, exploitation by the member and there being no scope of transfer; let your life continue to be fc%^ed by the jerk and just keep signing of Form 108 in mind. Is it, mr mundhra?   And read the new head of BOS; he says that “time and time again; toppers have told about importance Of articleship. And after 30 pages; we have vikesh’s article.   Disclaimer: The above points are in jest and not written towards any caste,religion, creed. And vikesh bro; holi hai bhai holi hai; buraa na mano holi hain.  ROFL...That was raw. Thanks for the subtle/inuendo compliments on the English skills of Southindians. The fact is,I was totally F! @ #$% up during my articleship period.(Please excuse me for the use of an expletive here,I just wanted to let my hairs down here a bit...inspired by Joseji! Hehe!) My auditor made me work like a slave,sending a greenhorn student like me alone on audit-tours to Alangulam,Ariyalur(with no audit program or plan) and shouting his throat hoarse when nothing substantial could be done by me and punishing me for that by making me do some extraneous house errands. However,I changed my auditor.I got a transfer.It was those good old days when I was lucky.Infact,I did not know that I could tranfer.I went to ICAI,Chennai and then said I could do it.I was waiting for an opportune moment. My first auditor was particularly abusive and shouted at me with highly expletive verbal bombs.One day I really thought that the proverbial 'camel had already borne the last straw' and gave my piece of mind(well, some choicest abuses to him to stun him,gently put) to him.It had the intended effect which I had in my mind.I did not over-do it as he could have ruined me. He promptly asked me to get a tranfer and OH! Man-o-Man! I was really glad and got a transfer to a saner,kinder,more co-operative CA who gave me wide-expsoure in all fields of audit(not making me sit just before an Income Tax return or in the Bank) and also ample leave for my exams(3 months--unheard of in my friend's circles! those days!).Hullelujah! Miracles do happen. I guess many would have been through this...There is nothing unprofessional or professional about this.If there is injustice,it does not mean one should go through it and put up with it and read stories of bravado and inspire oneself to bear it.I commend Jose's guts to come out open and inspire students.(However,I advice Jose to refrain from using 'raw' examples like the Prostitute one as the intended reader would be put-off by such examples(especially in a professional forum like this where many students/professionals(not minding a few blacksheep) come here to read something to inspire them or inform them)and would react negatively to it.Also,if you analyze cold-logically,there are lot of differences between a call-girl and an articled clerk.Emotionalities maybe inside your mind but one must find a proper medium/expression to express it,else it just boomerangs back on us.Im not 'advicing' you,just want your high-energy to be of good use when you become a CA and useful to our country and students.) This fight between the student and auditor seems to be based on pure ego and nothing else. There is a book called "The Dip" written by Seth Godin.He mentions there that professionals create a greater Dip once they qualify and make things tough for people after them to succeed. However,the reselient student who survives this and succeeds must also take a cue that he or she must treat his or her articled students properly and in probity. The current ban on transfership is most draconian and most unfortunate.If one wants to curb "dummyship" there are other ways to do it,this ban puts genuine cases to great hardships. The difference between India and other Western countries including USA and Canada where I also worked is that: In India: A person is believed to be guilty unless he proves himself to be innocent. In the rest of the countries: A person is treated as an innocent person till evidence mounts that he is otherwise. (There is an interesting book which I read recently on these germane matters by V.Raghunathan(a southindian prof working in Italy) by name: Games Indians Play) I do hope when Jose becomes a CA and intends to practice,he would definitely treat his articled clerks well. The whole system has to change.

i will take ur advise ,sis.

have u passed finals?

Originally posted by : Abhishek
	LIFE DOES NOT END WITH 3 YEARS OF ARTICLESHIP. BUT IT ENDS 3 PRECIOUS YEARS OF YOUR LIFE.

 Dear Abhishek,

You have misunderstood my words. I can understand your problem. You say that articleship ends 3 precious years of your life. I am sure that the day when you will complete your CA  you will find that something you gained through articleship. You cannot say that you ended your articleship for none. Your feelings about articleship are negative because you are not satisfied with your training. But what to do now when you cannot take transfer. So definitely you have to face the difficulties which are beyond your control at least now.  

The following is the analysis  :

1. One has to bear the cost of wrong decision taken as I narrated about Tata Motors.

2.  When your beginning is wrong; it takes some time to rectify it.

3. A wrong decision frustrate you.

4. You are unable to see the positive environment when you are caught with some odd situations.

5.  In future, whenever you have to take decision; you will think carefully.

6. It is not possible for a man to avoid mistakes, but its repetition can be avoided.

7. Some persons learn from others' mistakes.

8. Don't curse the situations. Take them as challenges. If you take them positively; you will prepare yourself for future.

.............

.............

Whatever has left so far; you can prepare yourself to achieve it in future.

Make strategy right now.

Long term goals are important than the short term.

Whatever we learn from short term; is part of long term; of course.

Nobody can solve your short term problems; you have to face it when circumstances are beyond your control (regarding non-allowability of transfer). 

Originally posted by : jose
	Originally posted by : Mythreya   Originally posted by : jose It seems that ICAI has started recruiting students especially toppers/rankers to spread propaganda on the usefulness of articleship. The latest kid to join this bandwagon is Vikesh Mundhra, June 2009 Final 3rd ranker. All of you must have read his article in the student’s newsletter of March 2010 and after reading it title “Articleship Training –some PROFESSIONAL TIPS”; you would expect some logical sequence of arguments against prevalent notions by dummies/semi dummies or even genuine ones who are shouting at ICAI about  reducing articleship. Reading the article, I honestly found that the essay was like written by a class 10 board examinee in English, especially those who didn’t like the topic to write 300 words; but has to do so to get marks; similarly here it seems that ICAI “requested” him to propagate the “usefulness” of articleship;and he complied “grumpily”. First of all, see his English and his grammar, which after editing also as shortcomings. Read the first paragraph in bold; and ask ur English professor at college preferably some South Indian from Chennai(their English is awesome). In the first introductory para in bold letters; he says that he is gonna reason why “articleship period is so long?” You read the whole article, you still wont find any valid argument. It seems after lots of brainstorming ; he has found 4 points. CS is equally competitive profession and their syllabus is not inferior to that of CA; if not less voluminous. Their articleship period is 1.5 years; so Mr Mundhra, are u saying that a)      They are lots less competent kids that new CA passouts b)      They have less practical approach. They are mere bookworm and rott-learners c)       They have less knowledge d)      Unkii career is equivalent to that of roadside- bhutta seller. And lemme say something which may sound disgusting but might support your view. A prostitute or ra#$d* who will find it very physically and mentally demanding, revolting and abhorable when she starts f$%$cking with her clients initially. But as time passes; she is used to all that agonies; then she doesn’t mind rather she only has her sole aim or incentive in mind ie the money given by the client for their 20 min of pleasure. Similarly, in the case of articled assistant; let that how many years of abuses, exploitation by the member and there being no scope of transfer; let your life continue to be fc%^ed by the jerk and just keep signing of Form 108 in mind. Is it, mr mundhra?   And read the new head of BOS; he says that “time and time again; toppers have told about importance Of articleship. And after 30 pages; we have vikesh’s article.   Disclaimer: The above points are in jest and not written towards any caste,religion, creed. And vikesh bro; holi hai bhai holi hai; buraa na mano holi hain.  ROFL...That was raw. Thanks for the subtle/inuendo compliments on the English skills of Southindians. The fact is,I was totally F! @ #$% up during my articleship period.(Please excuse me for the use of an expletive here,I just wanted to let my hairs down here a bit...inspired by Joseji! Hehe!) My auditor made me work like a slave,sending a greenhorn student like me alone on audit-tours to Alangulam,Ariyalur(with no audit program or plan) and shouting his throat hoarse when nothing substantial could be done by me and punishing me for that by making me do some extraneous house errands. However,I changed my auditor.I got a transfer.It was those good old days when I was lucky.Infact,I did not know that I could tranfer.I went to ICAI,Chennai and then said I could do it.I was waiting for an opportune moment. My first auditor was particularly abusive and shouted at me with highly expletive verbal bombs.One day I really thought that the proverbial 'camel had already borne the last straw' and gave my piece of mind(well, some choicest abuses to him to stun him,gently put) to him.It had the intended effect which I had in my mind.I did not over-do it as he could have ruined me. He promptly asked me to get a tranfer and OH! Man-o-Man! I was really glad and got a transfer to a saner,kinder,more co-operative CA who gave me wide-expsoure in all fields of audit(not making me sit just before an Income Tax return or in the Bank) and also ample leave for my exams(3 months--unheard of in my friend's circles! those days!).Hullelujah! Miracles do happen. I guess many would have been through this...There is nothing unprofessional or professional about this.If there is injustice,it does not mean one should go through it and put up with it and read stories of bravado and inspire oneself to bear it.I commend Jose's guts to come out open and inspire students.(However,I advice Jose to refrain from using 'raw' examples like the Prostitute one as the intended reader would be put-off by such examples(especially in a professional forum like this where many students/professionals(not minding a few blacksheep) come here to read something to inspire them or inform them)and would react negatively to it.Also,if you analyze cold-logically,there are lot of differences between a call-girl and an articled clerk.Emotionalities maybe inside your mind but one must find a proper medium/expression to express it,else it just boomerangs back on us.Im not 'advicing' you,just want your high-energy to be of good use when you become a CA and useful to our country and students.) This fight between the student and auditor seems to be based on pure ego and nothing else. There is a book called "The Dip" written by Seth Godin.He mentions there that professionals create a greater Dip once they qualify and make things tough for people after them to succeed. However,the reselient student who survives this and succeeds must also take a cue that he or she must treat his or her articled students properly and in probity. The current ban on transfership is most draconian and most unfortunate.If one wants to curb "dummyship" there are other ways to do it,this ban puts genuine cases to great hardships. The difference between India and other Western countries including USA and Canada where I also worked is that: In India: A person is believed to be guilty unless he proves himself to be innocent. In the rest of the countries: A person is treated as an innocent person till evidence mounts that he is otherwise. (There is an interesting book which I read recently on these germane matters by V.Raghunathan(a southindian prof working in Italy) by name: Games Indians Play) I do hope when Jose becomes a CA and intends to practice,he would definitely treat his articled clerks well. The whole system has to change. i will take ur advise ,sis. have u passed finals?

 It is not sis,Mister.It is Mr.Mythreya.

In maximum cases:

LIFE DOES NOT END WITH 3 YEARS OF ARTICLESHIPS

IT  MAKES LIFE PRECIOUS

Originally posted by : CA. Dashrath Maheshwari
	In maximum cases: LIFE DOES NOT END WITH 3 YEARS OF ARTICLESHIPS IT  MAKES LIFE PRECIOUS

LIFE ENDS WITH 3 YAEARS OF ARTICLESHIP ONLY WHEN WE SELECT WRONG FIRM. bECAUSE TRANSFER IS STILL NOT ALLOWED. 

Hold On.....Hold On............Hold On...............First of all let me clear some misconceptions about me. I am one of the happy articles in India presently, the reason being that my Principal is a very kind and genuine person. I have learned lot of things working with him. he is a kinda person who know how to treat his employees. He is one of the CAs who understand the problems of a student.He dont give me 3. months leave for exams, but whatever cooperation he do is enough.

 

But, my first CA was a real asshole.who I still wonder how become a CA. For him an article trainee wasn't more than a cheap office boy. He was a completely biased person, who was always in favour of some employees (including articles), who was of his use in "Extra office Activities".

Those were the worst days of my life. Only I know how I took the transfer, and that also he give by showing huge leaves. But, I was., still happy, that finally he is out. Everytime I think about him, I feel like kicking his ass. I wrote many e-mails in this regard to our "alert" institute, in this regard, and got reply of none.

But, whatever, thats not the case now.

 

And ofcourse, in that case, I would have wasted my 3.5 years. Forget about work, he dont have that too much. And whatever he had was basically divided in two sections, (1) Nice work (2) Not so nice, a very boring and hectic work. 1st section always go to his fav. staff, and second was delegated to rest. Sometimes, his fav. staff used to give us those work which was actually given to them, and when we complaint, he say "its ok, after all its office work.". And when we do the same thing he used to reply "cant you do your own work."

 

So. the crux is that I am a happy student now, but i can understand the pain of other students. If those studid rules relating to transfer, were in existence at that time, then I dont know what would have happened. May be I would have left CA or would have taught a nice lesson to him.

It is really very unfortunate that students are not ready to understand the importance of the training. Most of them are in favour of cut in training period.

The Institute has already taken right steps of introducing IPCC where training will start after clearing IPCC. Practically students were facing problems due to simultaneously doing B.Com., Coaching, Training and Studies at home. This was hectic situation.

With the change in articleship training; now only those students will be allowed for training who have passed half of the journey of CA Examinations. They would be matured students and would be in a position to judge where to go. Since number of qualified students would be less hence definitely poorly infrastructured CA firms would not be in a position to get articled clerks.

 So the students who will join CA course in future would be in a better position. The old students who think that they have been trapped; should think about seniors. You all are in much better position than the situations faced by seniors - no coaching, no guidance, no books, no stipends, no compilations (always short of supply), no computers (calculators were luxury)  and no good training - all in one. 

Every next generation gets better facility.

Sir, muh kholne ke liye maafi chahta hun.

IF we compare ourselves to CA who passed 15 years ago; we have some plus points ie coaching systems. But for me, senior is one who passed in front of me when i was class11 or CPT, pcc. All of them say that,"hamarey time mein transfer thaa; and we could not be so much exploited by CAs as at least we could negotiate thru transfer." If one wanted varied exposure before entering industry; they could go to bigger firms thru mutual tarnsfer. And one wanted more time for study; they would opt for smaller firms. <Moderated> Dummy to control hone wale nahi hain. Now from first only students dummy ho jayenge.Fasoge tum log jiska koi relative ya mommy daddy CA nahin hain."

Abhi bhi bolne ke liye secondment hain. But i think CAs wont take secondment articles as they wont have complete control over them. And CAs wont allow their articles to go for secondment; as it means indirectly saying that this guy was a fool to join my firm which doesn't have much work.

ICAI botched up by bringing pcc scheme then. Then why should students suffer.

Post Moderated by DM: Dear Vikesh, Behave like professional, being a person from same reputed community, I request you to think before writing, I mean you are replying to a 15yrs experienced CA, you should know, how to reply a father some person.

To CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA We agree with you that articleship is very important to us. But we raise our voice when we have to do personnel work of our employer and our scope is limited by putting restiction of articleship tranfer. With such rule the employer has enough liberty to exploit. The ICAI has made our life like JAIL. And when thare is matter of secondment 99% CA will not ready for the same. This is true.

Originally posted by : Poonam
	Originally posted by : CA. Dashrath Maheshwari In maximum cases: LIFE DOES NOT END WITH 3 YEARS OF ARTICLESHIPS IT  MAKES LIFE PRECIOUS   LIFE ENDS WITH 3 YAEARS OF ARTICLESHIP ONLY WHEN WE SELECT WRONG FIRM. bECAUSE TRANSFER IS STILL NOT ALLOWED.

 YES POONAM YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

CA. Dashrath Maheshwari HAVE YOU ANY ANSWER YET ?????????

Many times we have discussed about unfortunate ban on transfer. 

Even I am not in favour of that. 

But what to do. 

Circumstances are out of control. 

Such circumstances are likely to be faced in our whole life. 

We have to bear whenver things are out of control.

Many time despite taking best medicines we are unable to get well soon.

So we have to wait for better time. 

That is why in our Indian culture we emphasis on Luck.

Previously all CA members were also opposing CPE hours specially those who are senior.

But, now most of them have recognized the importance of CPE hours although in initial two years; these seemed  to be wasting of time.

Very few articled clerks get the right training, it is a fact.

Why - because at that time students do not know what does it mean.

I am really sorry that I can't help you in this matter. 

But, I assure you that whenever I will have meetings with council members in seminars etc.;  I will discuss this matter. 

Even; I will write the matter to the President. Only this I can do. 

 

 I fully agree with Mr. Jose. 

Originally posted by : CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA
	Many times we have discussed about unfortunate ban on transfer.  Even I am not in favour of that.  But what to do.  Circumstances are out of control.  Such circumstances are likely to be faced in our whole life.  We have to bear whenver things are out of control. Many time despite taking best medicines we are unable to get well soon. So we have to wait for better time.  That is why in our Indian culture we emphasis on Luck. Previously all CA members were also opposing CPE hours specially those who are senior. But, now most of them have recognized the importance of CPE hours although in initial two years; these seemed  to be wasting of time. Very few articled clerks get the right training, it is a fact. Why - because at that time students do not know what does it mean. I am really sorry that I can't help you in this matter.  But, I assure you that whenever I will have meetings with council members in seminars etc.;  I will discuss this matter.  Even; I will write the matter to the President. Only this I can do.

 Respected sir ,

                       Sorry to say you that if you can't help us then we request you stop to give advise regarding on articleship. Sorry Sir