nw don fight wid each other........

kuch toh karna padega ab.......its high tym nw........paani sir ke uppar ja chuka hai......

let's think of some solution to this problem.....

I think Jose is frustrated and he has let his hairs down on the matter and maybe used some expletive words.

But he has a point.Try to look at the message of the person not the person perse or his language.

People get fooled by such stunts and side-track main matters.When you guys are yourself not united and constantly cribbing and fighting with each other, then, wherefrom do you expect changes to comeforth from ICAI with a divisive representation?

What are the main matters which Jose was trying to tell in his agony? :--

1. Some student(or student decoy/fake student employed by ICAI) tried to tell you guys that the ICAI is going to allow changes in the transfership and it did not materialize much on the expected lines.

2. It was a mere elaboration of the earlier stance and not a contradiction or repealment.

3. Committee(which means literally "come-for-tea" and no real stuff is done) which was formed roughly 2 months ago, has done nothing but elaborate a bit more on 2 points.

4. Possibility of a Principal misusing the powers given to him against an articled clerk/assitant by quoting unreal,false or malicious reasons example cited by Jose: That of Moral turpitude: Ogling a nice belle/boy in the office being one!(If this happens to any of you innocently, then I guess you would use more number of expletives than this Jose)

5. Redtapism and perfidy existent in our ICAI(See myother thread comment on Peter's principle which has crept into ICAI now and making it incompetent at the highest levels.Take it from me,I know this for sure,for I have interacted with the top brass recently)

6. Students interests jeopardized due to these retrograde measures.

These are the 6 points which Jose was trying to make.Unfortunately, while typing he started reeling out expletives('Younger the person hotter his blood boileth') and attacking people at the helm of affairs which rubbed the wrong way with some students who have good-goody notions about everything without caring to analyze the reasoning behind someone or something or some situation.

Now, continue to debate on these germane issues and see if something constructive can be done.Please look at 'substance over style' in future discussions.I just happened to catch this funny thread and just poked my nose in to comment, though could have kept quite.

Advice to Jose:

1.It is good to be emotional.But if your presentation is really persuasive, people will really respect you and denounce those whom you denounce,praise those whom you praise,cry with you when you cry and laugh with you when you laugh.

2.You can lampoon anyone in the power strata up above you, but use good lampooning techniques and lace your posting with humour not crass language.Humour is more of a potent weapon than mere cursing.Dont get into trouble with anyone in power.It is good to be bold but not to be brash and naiive.

3.Expletives(fowl language) have very vibrant power and I too sometimes use it to inspire and to attack negativity not anyone personally.Expletive=Explosive; so use it with caution.You can do whatever you want in your mind or shout when no one is around but in a public forum, what happens is when someone says something against your posting,2 others will join to support him/her and then 2 more and so on, then suddenly one will support you and denounce all those who criticized you and 2 more will support this guy and so on and so forth,in all this confusion, the message is lost and nothing positive can or will be done.Hope you understand.

So long,everyone!

jose ur anger is very much acceptable but please dont use abusive language .  no one is happy with the rules on the ca students. lets hope that President sir looks into this matter and give students something to cheer about by bringing new rules favouring the students.

Nothing is going to happen, time will erase all you ruins.

Untill you prepare or set ur mindset to act or to do something against the institute' s decision it will be the time to study for your exams , then u pass & become one of them.

thats the way it is being going on & will also prevail in future.

Just let ur articleship finish quitely and u will be addicted to it.

No one has time to go for PIL or for any strike or some revolution

You just concentrate on ur studies and let the period of articleship come to an end.

.Jose i think u have an exceptional principal to generally good principals/CA fraternity..Smooth sea never makes a good sailor..I can tell u from my personal experience that whether u had good experience or bad experience will make u strong for future.

quoting ashish  "Everybody in this forum as well as other forum who feel that such language is unjustified would rethink if they are made to work with a CA who makes them work 12-14 hours a day without giving credit for extra hours worked with a stipend for Rs 2000 a month and makes the students in a room full of dust, mosquitoes and who sits in front of the student and keeps shouting the whole day and takes out all his frustration caused by his wife, clients, IT officers, traffic jams while coming to office etc on them."

Boss i have worked for 17 hours a day for 7 days in a week. its parallel to your studies. During exams u can study for 15-20 hours y not in articleship. Companies like Big 4s, and many will extract so much work from you be sure about it..Kaun kehta hai shadi karke CA karo bhai..apni wife ko bhi nahi sambhal sakte kya agar shadi ki hai to or she doesn't understand you? CA /CS like courses make you strongest in the business my dear..Paisa dekhlo (2000 bugs ) ya long term value dekhlo! ur wish!(we used to get 1500, my seniors used to get 400 during their articleship. I know so many of them who are Manager finance, VPs,CFOs,Partners. They have all been through all this buddy.

Jose: Try to respect your seniors! If you are really frustrated file a complaint with the ICAI, they have always been helpful. still u have any problem file PIL/RTI etc..so many ways man but abusing and using such kind of words shows your character ,schooling and upbringing..

Its always easy to criticise others but look from behind their eyeballs and u may find them totally correct.

Also i would suggest all to look at the annual reports of ICAI if u guys are really doing CA and then think of blaming them with things like wasting Fees etc. MBA karke dekho boss kitna paisa lagta hai even from 3rd claa Institutes.and the worth you get by being a CA is indispensible whetrher be in practice, big4s, or Industry. Remember neither you are the 1st one nor last one to do this course.

Anyways best regards to all and best of luck to students.

Thanks and regards

CA.Rohit

 Rohit sir is right, in every situation we respect our senior`s .please dont use abusive language .this is not fare against institute and does not any moral respect for the senier and the institute. in every sit. we have to work .

Hello Friedz!!!!!!!! I said only that, The Institute make rules for their own benefits & not for the benefits of students.

Dear Rohit,

Dear Vidhyashankar Sir,
 

Thank your for posting your views. It is true that in forums, a posting agreeing or disagreeing influences others and herd mentality follows. There is almost no possibility that all these discussions, harsh or polite words would bring any change in the system full of red tapism, corruption and perfidy.

I liked your advice and I would consdier the same as far as possible before posting anything further.

Thank You.

 Please clarify my urgent doubt:

Attention!!

Refrain from using foul languages and making personal attack.

Regards
ADmin

1."I shall not like what you say, but I shall defend unto death your right to say it" is a quote popularly attributed to Voltaire not Bernard Shaw.

Actually the quote was: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This eloquent defense of tolerance and freedom of speech is widely attributed to the French writer Voltaire, that master of liberal philosophy renowned for his satirical wit.Francois Marie Arouet (Voltaire was his nom de plume) was one of the most celebrated writers of the 18th-century intellectual movement known as the Enlightenment. His tolerant religious and political beliefs were in sharp opposition to established views, and his biting commentaries twice led to his imprisonment, and eventually, to his exile to England.

But the fact of the matter is, Voltaire also didn't pen or utter the sentiment you quote! According to a number of websites and  authentic references, "The phrase was invented by a later author as an epitome of his attitude." It comes from The Friends of Voltaire, written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall and published in 1906 under the pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre. Hall said that she paraphrased Voltaire's words in his " Treatise on Toleration," which includes such thoughts as:

Not only is it extremely cruel to persecute in this brief life those who do not think the way we do, but I do not know if it might be too presumptuous to declare their eternal damnation.

The issues Voltaire addressed are surprisingly contemporary and as relevant today as in 18th-century France.Maybe even for ICAI Vs. Students!

-----------------------------------

2. All your points are sarcastical and make a point.However, the point on minorities was not understood by me.Do you mean to say, minorities should be given right to transfer easily?(as opposed to say someone who is equally undergoing suffering from a majority group?)

3. If a system has "dummies" it is something to do with the inherent lacunae in the system(please read my posts in "Constructive things we can do...") and systemic changes must be adopted than ameliorative and knee-jerk reactions to some problems being made as patchwork.

Following logical holes can be explored in the above arguments:

1. I suffered a lot( 17 hours a day for 7 days a week, I presume continuously as is being hinted and not a one-time stance, which means scientifically, the person with stress and strain would have been hospitalized, so this claim sounds dubious to say the least) and thus you all should also suffer and there is no harm in it.

2."During exams you study for 15-20 hours why not for your articleship?" This is another logical blooper under 3 counts.

1rst count: Not all study for examinations for 15 to 20 hours per day(even during study holidays).Infact it is counter-productive to study thus and also affects health.

2nd count: Even given that students study for long hours for the exam, it is because they are "STUDENTS"(STUDENTS come etymologically from the word "STUDY").PERIOD! And no one has the obnoxious right to comment on this and compare with the appaling work conditions being given to students.Even many labour laws provide for the maximum number of working hours to any labourer(physical or mental), what sort of a protection does a CA student get apart from a toothless and fangless ICAI?

3rd Count: No one is learning anything really by working for so many hours in the office other than how to cope with drudgery and boredom-to-the-core.Touch your heart bereft of all jingoism and feel-goodisms and say truly whether you can learn a lot by working so many hours(I accept one learns something for sure) or whether you are doing mechanical work?

3. What makes you think a male or a female cannot marry and do CA? This is purely assumptions on your part without looking into facts and circumstances surrounding a student.I personally know many of my friends who both fell in love and married while doing CA and managed to clear it in the first attemps.It is all a matter of setting priorities and planning it out.Also, you have drifted from the mainline discussion which the students were trying to make regarding the circular and have made sarcastic uncalled for remarks here without understanding what it is in the first place.

4. Paisaa dekhlo....blah blah.

As I have mentioned earlier, there is nothing wrong in getting paid for whatever work is being done in a reasonable and just manner.The pay is abominally low and your rhetoric about longterm benefits is fine but you again go back to the same trap of "so many suffered and now they are VPs and therefore you too suffer and become a VP"...This is plain retrogradive arguments.Progress happens through positive thinking for all.

I have to mention here that I too have faced many difficulties, which need not have been faced , and have come out successfully and have mentioned at various places in the forum apart form one thread my travails.This does not mean I go about preaching to one and all: "Look my Boss abused me so you also better get abused and win it, OK, Dont try to act smart"....This is plain being negative in thinking and a loser-mentality which will not take you far even if you have cleared CA.

5. I have no issues in you exhorting Jose to behave decently with seniors.That is a sane advice because people first see decency and then look at the content of the person.Good

But Im not comfortable with PIL filing by students.Do you think they will have time for all this and that it is a hassle free process? For once, I entreat you in a similar manner to look behind a "student's eyeballs" and look at their travails than a blind support for someone at the helm of affairs, for which you neither pass the exam,nor get a rank or medal nor do they even look for your support!

6. Comparisions with MBAs should not be made.

"Each is a cup of tea to to be sipped on its own".

Tommorow another course will come and MBA will become passe' then will you make comparisions with that course and MBA? All this is silly and inducing guilt-trips(this is coming from a CA passout who has done his MBA from Stern School,NYU, mind you, not some talking-thru-the-hat-business here!)

CA is indispensible, I agree, but the comment "You are not the 1st and the last...' is just disparaging the student ethos and discouraging the spirit. He might not be the first or the last but he might very well be the first to raise the student consciousness and no one can or should deny him that chance.

I strongly believe that CA profession will improve only if the student quality improves.PERIOD.And many many factors lie under this umbrella of "Student quality", not even Big 4s can compete if Indian CAs start to make a march and progress.Take it from me!

Krunal,
 

Hats off to you.I finally see one thinking Indian CA student with lots of chutzpah,creativity and out-of-box cum analytical thinking.We need more students like you.

Dilse!

P.S. Things will start to happen first in the mind, then in action.'Thoughts are things', they say. First it has to start with some debate and discussion and then even if one student is inspired and takes up the cause or some sane member for his profession takes this up or even an outsider to the profession files a PIL something positive can happen.But even in the mind nothing happens and we refuse to think and just use this forum to just crib and let our frustrations out, then squat can happen.So be positive(you really have no other choice in this world).