Hey Friends,

For last two weeks you have come out in support for this cause....but now comes the most important question...are you all willing to come out in open, unite and fight it out...I am in for it....and I eagerly wait for ur response...no more messages of support...now it is time for action...

I do not know whether it is ethical for me as a member to help you here but since I too commiserate with your pain, im suggesting the following logical arguments in your favour:

1. Locus standi attack: The very fact that 3 and half years with a single CA does not gaurantee that a student does not take "dummy articleship" in the first instance.

2. Detailed attack: Enumerate the real reasons why "dummy articleship" comes in the first place.

3. Relevant points to boost your stance in court: Learning experience might become dwindled.If a student wants more experience in the middle of the course and his auditor is unable to give it then this restricts such freedom.

4. Inhuman training conditions under CAs.

5. Less monitoring by the ICAI of CAs who treat students like slaves.Disciplinary action must be taken against such erring CAs.

6. Lack of support cell for grievance or inadequacy in the ICAI offices for student support or morale.

7. Today's students are tommorow's members and thus a vicious cycle begins.the very same frustrated students when they become CAs try to seek "revenge" psychologically against fresh students(this is somewhat like ragging in Indian colleges).This is harmful for the society and thus not only a student-case but a petition and stay order can be filed(if you are living in Delhi, you may wish to move the Supreme Court directly on this issue, because ICAI will have resources,money and time to take it to the Supreme court and you would be wasting your time in High courts!Try to seek Legal counsel on this and other aspects.Im sure all students would support him and pave way for a better ICAI and up Indian CA image.

Hey Vidhya,

Well I must say that you maintain your level while writing..

But in the present issue, I am neither considered with moral issues and I do not intend to allow the dummy articleship to take centre stage in this issue. Dummy articleship is a phenomenon that exists because of collusion of a member and an intern. The institute may take any step to stop it. I do not give a damn to it. Nor am I concerned with the slavery issue. I am also an intern and I am not treated like a slave. So that varies from individual to individual. That can not take center stage of a PIL.

The said circular can be challenged most effectively by invoking the constitutional safeguards..and that is what I plan to work upon.

And the issue of going to High Court is a matter of safety. If we get a straightaway rejection from SC, then we all would be screwed to eternity. Therefore, to take a safer stand, we plan to move the high Court. I am also aware that the final decision would come only from SC but there are risks associated with it.

One more thing. The very fact that once a person becomes a CA he starts taking this ethical consideration into mind while considering the needs of others is in itself the biggest blemish of this profession. The injustice in any form should be dealt with zero tolerance. We have no loyalty towards anything but humanity....other loyalties are often only a garb to shy away from the basic tenets of life...

 

Rahim, Sandesh Kafle, Subodh Nirula, Karthik, Amit, Sumit Jain, Rishabh Mishra, Sandeep, Gunjan, Kush, Jose, Kivisha, Rajiv, Neeraj..

 

Hi U all,

 

I have one question...are you all just gonna make posts or come together with me to do direct action? Reply to me at roark.2022 @ gmail.com

Lets analyze your statements threadbare:

"But in the present issue, I am neither considered with moral issues and I do not intend to allow the dummy articleship to take centre stage in this issue."

My take:This whole issue centres not just on some technical issue regarding the transfers but also the moral issue of student's morale getting affected and can be contended as one of the points.(Never narrow down your options or arguments while presenting a case before the legal counsel).In any case, even if you do not bring it up, ICAI would most definitely bring up the issue of dummy articleship and say that students take dummy articleship in complete violation of ICAI rules and thus this step was necessitated.What stand would have against this flow of their first argument, when you yourself do not bring in(as one of the points)the vexed question of dmmy articleship?

If I were a lawyer representing ICAI, I would start first from this point which you have neglected and keep harping on it, till you get vexed or move it to Supreme Court to get a standii on this.What would you do? Would you(or your legal counsel) then say--"No, I give a damn?"

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"Dummy articleship is a phenomenon that exists because of collusion of a member and an intern. The institute may take any step to stop it. I do not give a damn to it."

My Take: You might not give a damn, but this is precisely the issue which the ICAI will harp and you will be left to substantiate with evidentiary proof which denies that.Courts are not emotional and like you do not give a damn to either you or ICAI, they(technically speaking) are to be unbiased.

Im sure there is a 99% probablity that ICAI would bring in this dummy articleship thing to support their decision.

Also, any legal case must be considered in all angles and one must know one's opponents probable arguments first before giving in to the quirks one might have.

If Im an ICAI lawyer, I would first bring up evidences of many many students who did dummy articleship(and maybe currently doing dummy articleship) as a valid and legit reason to introduce this draconian measure.I will have statistics,information sheets,records from ICAI,disciplinary action.What would you have?---"I dont give a damn on this"???Pray tell me.

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 "Nor am I concerned with the slavery issue. I am also an intern and I am not treated like a slave. So that varies from individual to individual. That can not take center stage of a PIL."

My Take: There is nothing like center stage or back stage as far a PIL is concerned.All points have to be presented with no emotional bias from the presenter and the courts will then decide which are the major points to consider.While presenting, naturally your lawyer would set it up in a logical order, with the most legitimate points in the beginning and the minor points towards the end or as a side-comment.

"Slavery issue": Might be your one of your strongest point of defence while arguing this case.Now, "slavery", might be a strong word.You must search the thesaurus to present a better word before the eminent judges, else be brushed aside for exaggeration.

Also, in a PIL, you are not doing or doling anything from a subjective consideration.You represent the student community as a whole and just because you have not been treated inhumanly or against the stipulated ICAI timings, do not mean that other students all over the country have not been.And you dont give a "damn" to this valid point, then your fortress is weakened on this count.

Also, when I mentioned my take on the issue I said whatever might be your safe position you have to bring dummy articleship(this is where I clearly underlined the need that eventhough you are being treated well you have to take this issue to logically support your mainline stance)

As an ICAI lawyer, I would be rejoicing that you or your legal counsel have omitted this point.

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"The said circular can be challenged most effectively by invoking the constitutional safeguards..and that is what I plan to work upon. "

My Take: What exactly do you mean 'constitutional safegaurds'? Every Institute has a right to introduce a law as per convinience,need or merit unless it is illegal,immoral  or unethical as per the legal dictums.Even otherwise, ICAI is completely a government organization.It is a quazi-governmental organization.This too has constitutional sanction.

If you are talking about freedom of students being curbed.You must be able to substantiate in the court.

As an ICAI Lawyer, I would say, "Mr.RamRahim, please substantiate evidence like how we have done for "dummy articleship" that 'constitutional safegaurds' have been rejected by ICAI.Also please define what you exactly mean by these two words?"

Also as an ICAI lawyer I would defend ICAI's decision on not just legal grounds but also on moral and ethical grounds.

You would be left high and dry unless your legal counsel helps you out.

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"And the issue of going to High Court is a matter of safety. If we get a straightaway rejection from SC, then we all would be screwed to eternity. Therefore, to take a safer stand, we plan to move the high Court. I am also aware that the final decision would come only from SC but there are risks associated with it."

My Take: In any case, your thing if won by you somehow, would be taken to Supreme Court.You and all those petioning(or litigating) must run around pillar to post again to Supreme Court.Judiciary system in India is not completely efficient.There are more than 10 lakh cases pending everywhere and even if this is taken as a special judea case and seen, then too the judgement will take time, if not sqaushed by the court, primafacie,if you argue with weak points like "I dont give a damn" or vague terms like "Constitutional safegaurds".

There is nothing like "screwed for eternity".All such words just show that you are highly emotional.My writing might appear that Im emotional but that was only to inspire students and to keep the tone conversational but when it comes to serious issues, no one can be logical like me.Everypoint you have or will bring about will be logically sqaushed by me, so you have to prepare with proper legal counsel.

Why do I say there is nothing like "screwed for eternity" is because, students can mount pressure on a consolidated basis to the ICAI and Im sure ICAI would work to bring about changes or the board can make another decision which repeals this or a new president can effect another change,etc.Many things can happen and need not be always through the judicial route you have envisaged.

ICAI is not an enemy to students, afterall members have been students at one stage.They too know deep inside what the students are facing.So, dont have too much of a pessimistic view of the situation and analyze it with a logical mind without getting emotional.

I agree the decision which CA institute this time has taken is not in correct light but this has to be fought in a healthy way and not getting emotional like this.Ultimately, you and other students would be the sufferers, losing precious time for studies,runing behind courts,preparing arguments,etc.ICAI has all the time,resources and legal power in the world to fight it out.Keep this in mind.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your bravery.Your very action would be a deterrent to ICAI next tiem to consider the plight of students, next time they do something like this.(Whether you win the case or not is something different)

Finally, you say if the "supreme court straight away rejects", what makes you think High Court will not? Do you think High court is some benevelent organization meant for students of ICAI? or do you think it does not have legal powers or stand to reject your contention as primafacie absurd?(if you do not give all the arguments favouring your stance properly ie).Also, if the High court rejects it in he first place, then you would have to move to the Supreme Court anyways.Also, you can again go in for a re-appeal with a five member judge cousel on the issue or you can plea for a government ombudsman to handle this.There are so many legal routes you can approach to tackle this problem.People first apply for Highcourts because Supreme court means, you got to take the trouble of coming to Delhi and also the quality of the case is seen and if it is petty then it can be decided in Highcourt itself(though it is not a legal norm)

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"One more thing. The very fact that once a person becomes a CA he starts taking this ethical consideration into mind while considering the needs of others is in itself the biggest blemish of this profession. The injustice in any form should be dealt with zero tolerance. We have no loyalty towards anything but humanity....other loyalties are often only a garb to shy away from the basic tenets of life."

My Take: You talk like this and not only the lawyer but also the judge will immidiately think you are plain jealous of the members of the Institute.It is the ICAI who you are fighting legally not any individual CA.So, technically your argument is digressive.

                  The last line which you have said is a nice statement, very true, very emotional, very human but will not achieve anything in the court of law unless you have substantiated enough arguments and evidentiary proofs in your favour.Take note of this.Also, you started the thread saying that I need logical pointers but now you yourself are getting emotional.

                  Emotions will not work much in legal or professional atmosphere.Emotions are a driving force, I accept but they are not legally tenable.

                  Also, your first line is not only vague but also suffers from the defect of incoherent structure.What do you mean by a CA "taking this ethical consideration"....ethical considerations have to be taken and that is why Code of ethics have been prepared.

You say injustice has to be dealt with zero tolerance.This looks like the statement given by politicians(sayin the wake of australian student racist attacks) but then

What is defined as injustice in this germane case?

What do you mean by zero tolerance?

What measures would you adduce to all this?

What are you substantive and co-linear points of argument on this issue?

Ramrahim: Look, Im not trying to discourage you or have replied back because you have rejected my logical pointers.You must think logically and commonsensically too as judges whether in High Court or Supreme court are not fools.Neither is ICAI or its legal bandwagon.

Time is precious for you and other students and thus it has to be spent fruitfully.

So in the matters of legal cases, you have to first think from the opponent side and then make up your case and not base it solely on your current preoccupying thoughts or perceptions.

If I have hurt you in any manner, Im sorry.

I do not have a legal qualification and so do not take my arguments as some legal expertise or verbiage.You have to consult a lawyer on this issue and take his counsel.Also, Im not a lawyer for ICAI!!!! I just put up hypothetical situations which might coem up.

So long!

 

Hey Vidhya, Well as I said. Always a well written dialogue from your side. From my side I can say two things. First, I do not intend to put the legal arguments in a forum run by CAs and open to public at large. Thus, the use of vague terms. Second, since you have never seen the judicial process except knowing the number of cases pending at Supreme Court, I would rather suggest you to not to make comments on the legal process and the methodology that one should undertake. I have had the chance to work at Supreme Court with country’s best lawyer. So I am atleast aware how to hedge. And as far as the issue of dummy articleship being the centre point, I do not see any mention of it in the said circular. By bringing it as a part of my plea, I would only be giving an olive branch to ICAI. I would also request you that if you intend to put up some arguments, then please do not post at the forum. I have already put my mail id there. The first maxim of legal battle is to safeguard your arguments. By discussing them in public, you are only acting on behalf of your opponent. And as far as your ability to argument, I do not even question the fact that you would beat me. Only that your arguments would be well known, mine be available only at the last moment. Please do not think that I am discouraging anyone to put arguments or counter-arguments. It is just that I firmly believe that arguments should not be discussed in public.. This forum can only be used for information sake, not for laying your head open for public display. I know High court is not a shoulder support for the weak to cry. Rest, I shall again request you to put the arguments in mail. Only then I would be able to reply in concrete terms. Otherwise, my favourite subject is poetry.

Hi Ramrahim,

At the outset, it would interest you to know that both my maternal uncle and my elder cousin brother are leading lawyers(this is apart from my mother,who is no more, who was a lawyer in Mumbai).The former in the Supreme Court and the later in Madras High Court.I do have an understanding as to what goes on in the judicial system here in India.It is just your hasty assumption without knowing the truth, which is excusable from my side.Im cool with it.

What I have putforth are not arguments just primafacie observations.Im sure you can build a strong case in your favour using these and other secret weapons/arguments you might have.Infact, if you notice, these are just arguments from ICAI side which I have given not from your side much and ICAI can do squat reading these general observations of mine and become strong case-wise.

The circular does not mention anything about Dummy articleship in a classic tradition of ICAI not clearly explaining anything properly what they do, however, there is no bar from preventing them from taking this up.In most cases, and even after attending CPE programs I have come to know through informal talks that ICAI had this primarily in their mind.Now, this is some insider information which I had the privy of and am sharing it with you.Thus, if you present it properly then ICAI will get a whip-lash from you and not an olive branch!

You are right however, on the following counts:

• Safeguard one's arguments from the public lest the opponent poke holes into it and gets prepared.
• Vagueness is adopted to camoflauge the real intentions.

I commend your legal intelligence here on these 2 grounds.I believe you have learnt this from your work experience under the Supreme Court Lawyer.

Hereafter, I would email you personally if I have anything to say.Peace!

Please do not take me otherwise, Im not supporting the ICAI just because Im a member, however, I do advice extreme caution in this matter, lest you jeopardize your career.Also, my emails would come under anonymity because I do not want to get embroiled in this, for obvious and prudent reasons, as Im a member.I hope you understand the gravity.

Thanks for the posting and best of luck in your assay!

 

well,

 

Me too using pseudoname

Guessed as much from your name! Hehe!

Guessed as much from your name! Hehe!

But when you put the case in highcourt we will all know who this "Ram Rahim" is!! Haha!

hello............... rahim ram....... 

hello............... rahim ram....... ....

hi Ram Rahim

I am Shashank I also a CA student and its very sorry to hear about your situtions of the student,

and i am ready to take part in your case or petition and i even ready to take case on my name

or any other help you want.

 

it is necessary now as icai is not paying attention to students matters.. or we shud once talk with the icai's council by moving together at sahadhra.... we wil hav to mark our presence together at icai for this cause only, then only icai wil consider something about this.