| Originally posted by :Mani VGS |
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Dear Friends,
Since I am also a teacher, I thought I could share this. If it is ok, then take it. Otherwise, simply ignore:
First of all very happy to see the posting of Mr. Vidhya sankar sir in forum of CA Club India. He has a good idea that whatever he tells it will be right and people will appeciate him and ask his mail id.
Why we should go for coaching? I will tell you some example.
Imagine, by giving advice or preaching, if a person or his life can change would mean, better I would go to all the prisons in India (or World). I will give 1 hour of preaching or advice? Will all the thief, terrorists, etc will change themselves? Is it not a foolish to think that by giving advice others will change? We cannot change anybody in this world. Everybody who wants to change should realise about themselves. They should have an urge to change themselves. They should have perserverance.
Similarly, by attending classes, a student cannot get 500 out of 100 or he cannot become knowledegable of all the information in this world. Being a teacher, i cannot tell that I know everything. I am also learning certain things every second. Everybody is learning in this world new things every second. So, a student who is attending class, should know that, by attending classes, he cannot secure 500 out of 100 (I also know only you can get 100 out of 100). Once class is over, you should try problems at your home or you should study at your home.
Take for example a topic by name "Single Entry". In this topic, this moment i can give 1,000 problems. But please tell me from your heart, is it possible to solve 1,000 problems for Single Entry topic inside a class? If 1,000 problems I have to solve would mean, for Single Entry topic I have to spend 6 months (one separate batch). Then if i spend this much time for one topic, what will I do for remaining 15 (approximately) topics?
Mind that students once they attend classes, they should not have the view that "They will clear the exam by getting 500 out of 100." The purpose of attending class is to reduce the burden of understanding the preamble about the topic, some intricate issues etc. at home. Rest of the work, students should try at their home. So many mistakes are there in ICAI material and suggested answers. In order to avoid all these things only, students should attend classes. Otherwise, no need for coaching for CA. Understood?
Some people in this forum commented and criticised about some great teacher. Before commenting about your teachers, first of all try to correct yourself. More than that, dont judge others. Others are judging you, mind that. So Change yourself. Dont try to change others.
Some people told, teachers are coming late. Even if they come late, they are solving only one problem and rest of the problem they ask students to solve at their home, teacher is taking 10 hours classes etc. I accept certain mistakes are being committed by certain teachers. Just because, one police official is doing something wrong, can you generalise every police is worst in this world?
I will tell about the attitude of some students (not all). They have an idea of attending class only for one month. In that month class should be daily for only one hour. Saturday and Sunday should be holiday. Within one month all subjects should be completed, by explaining maximum theory, including 100 tests, solving 10,000 problems inside the class.
So dont generalise that all teachers are like this, that, X, Y, Z etc. Try to change your mistakes my dear friends.
To conclude, purpose of attending class is to reduce the burden of understanding the basis knowledge about the subject and some intricate issues only. Dont think you will become God by attending classes. Any finally, my humble request is "Dont judge your teachers and dont comment/criticise about everybody". Try to rectify certain mistakes done by you (students).
Just because, forum is there, we should not write anything (to get appreciation, popularity, fame, name etc.) This is not a playground.
If I told anything wrong, kindly excuse..
Yours
Mani V G S
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Dear Mani 'Sirji' and students,
Your views are appreciated.With due respects to your age and wisdom, I begin the following reply:
At the outset I have to say, you display a nice joke in the end: "If I told anything wrong, kindly excuse..." Be bold in your thoughts and expressions, Man! Why backtrack when you believe what you have said is right? It is like saying after slapping someone,"Im sorry if I hurt you by slapping, kindly excuse me."It is as silly as that and not going to help except give a euphoric feeling that gentlemanly behaviour was adopted(when slapping is no gentlemanly behaviour in the first place)!
Let me point out certain logical fallacies in your argument.
But before that: Students! beware of such "teachers of India", who bring shame to our country despite roaming around in the garb of profesionality and sound reasoning.Even a culprit can be caught easily but not such "teachers" who mould students for the bad of our country.
Some clarifications:
1. Im not behind fame or name.If that be the case, I wont be wasting my time here and have lot of oher platforms to display my skills.
2. I would have come in my real name and given my Email ID.Even to the admin, I have not revealed anything despite them asking for my identity a couple of times.You may check with them.
3. Im not behind students to make them ask for my email ID as you cleverly put it.They do it because they are curious(and maybe inspired by my messages) and whether I give them or not is purely my discretion.Im not here for anyone's praises or reprimands.I conduct my affairs here anonymously and for the benefit of the mass who take my advices and profit from it and not an elite few who bear grudges with what I say.
4. I too am a teacher albeit for different subjects like SAP and Options and Futures kind of subjects.
5. This line of reasoning adopted by this "teacher" is called in logic: Ad hominem abusive or a subtle personal attack.
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.
In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
6. Nowhere, mind you nowhere, have I said in the posting, coaching is unnecessary.
Infact, I myself have attended coaching and also replied to one student back stating Im not against coaching.So, this "teacher's" statement by you has been made out of a knee jerk reaction due to a feeling of insecurity because you are a teacher and feel threatened(ofcourse a natural retort would be to this--"Nay, I dont feel in any manner threatened by your posts.I just wanted to clarify.Many students still come to me"). I prefer calling a spade a spade.Straight-talking.Period.
7. If you are a teacher, it would be in the best interests for students to be helped by you in matters of subjects germane to the course rather than such a lengthy comment made to a post, which actually covered the entire gamut of both attending and non-attending coaching classes, to just put forth your two cents on the issue.I deem it personally only as a parade of your ego and nothing of practical merit to students.
Giving back your own "medicine"(which I refuse to accept anyways): "Just because a forum exists and someone has scribed something of a virtual anti-stance to what you are doing, you need not react strongly to it and that too on a personal level without knowing the person.This bepseaks of your human virtues to say the least and betrays your fragile ego as a teacher."
Now, coming to the logical fallacies in your comment:
First logical fallacy: "Imagine, by giving advice or preaching, if a person or his life can change would mean, better I would go to all the prisons in India (or World). I will give 1 hour of preaching or advice? Will all the thief, terrorists, etc will change themselves? Is it not a foolish to think that by giving advice others will change? We cannot change anybody in this world. Everybody who wants to change should realise about themselves. They should have an urge to change themselves. They should have perserverance"
This looks like a nice piece of logical argument with good emotional supportives injected.However, it is laced with pure and irreverent emotionality.
1. Im not giving any preaching or pulpit sermonizing,here.Advices, oh by God yes! Im giving for the benefit of students.(I dont care for Indianisms like "Its easy for anyone to give advices...blah blah blah..."
2. It is not foolish to think that by giving advice others will not change.Maybe not all might change.Maybe you might not accept(but naturally being a teacher yourself, and my scribes seem intimidating to your internal logic not to mention about your profession).Advices are like balms, when given with a true intention and not to just boss around.Advices make students think a thousand times before wasting their time and make them more productive.Advices with the right words have power.One word is sometimes enough to stir masses.
3. You say an urge must be created within the person to change...Good, this is fantastic.But how do you go about creating this "urge"? By asking him or her to meditate in a corner of a room? or by listening to sane advices or words? This is totally unsupported statement made in a hurry without thinking.
I would really appreciate if you really go to prisons and preach and try to change the prisoners there.A prison is also a Bodhi-tree and not some confinement area for robbers and goondas temporarily.Very few social organizations are bothered about the plight of prisoners in big jails and this creates a vicious cycle.You create even coaching centres like prisoner boot-camps so no use talking to guys like you!
Second logical fallacy: "Similarly, by attending classes, a student cannot get 500 out of 100 or he cannot become knowledegable of all the information in this world. Being a teacher, i cannot tell that I know everything. I am also learning certain things every second. Everybody is learning in this world new things every second. So, a student who is attending class, should know that, by attending classes, he cannot secure 500 out of 100 (I also know only you can get 100 out of 100). Once class is over, you should try problems at your home or you should study at your home."
1. The first logicall fallacy here is that of "special pleading":
Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applied applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
- Person A accepts standard(s) S and applies them to others in circumtance(s) C.
- Person A is in circumstance(s) C.
- Therefore A is exempt from S.
The person committing Special Pleading is claiming that he is exempt from certain principles or standards yet he provides no good reason for his exemption.
Putting it in plain terms. A teacher must know something to teach students, however he cannot know everything and still is learning and consequently, I who am a teacher special-plead here to be exempted from the duties of teaching well.An irrelevant detractor/argument given here is "Students can't get 500/100 anyways".This is absurd anyways and gets the agreement of the reader to subtly support the above special pleading.
Since, now Vidhyashankar has pried open this defect, students would see for themselves.I dont lose anything or gain anything here in all this.Im well qualified and well placed, mind you.It is all for students to think and thinking involves sound logical frames to enact upon not faulty arguments.
2. Many mistakes are there in study materials and the like issued by ICAI and thus the need for coaching.
There are many diligent and time/money saving ways in which this issue(if at all this is a big issue) can be ameliorated.
a. The student can buy a reference book.
b. The student can make a note of all mistakes/doubts and get it clarified with another friend.
c. Intelligent application and commonsense itself solves many problems arising in the material.(These 2 traits cannot be taught perse in the coaching classes).
d. Laterally and funnily thinking(like how I used to do), can get it clarified from other students who are attending the coaching classes(Hey no! I was just joking, dont take me to task.Haha!).
To substrate this particular argument(errors in materials) alone as a reason staggered for going to coaching classes is wrong.It may be one of the reasons, though.I do not deny it.
2.Third logical fallacy: "Some people in this forum commented and criticised about some great teacher. Before commenting about your teachers, first of all try to correct yourself. More than that, dont judge others. Others are judging you, mind that. So Change yourself. Dont try to change others."
What is the logical fallacy here: There are 2 not one.
1. Logical fallacy of "Guilt by association"
and
2. Logical fallacy of "Appeal to popular emotions"
A.Guilt by association:
Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people he/she dislikes accept the claim. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
- It is pointed out that people person A does not like,accept claim P.
- Therefore P is false
It is clear that sort of "reasoning" is fallacious. For example the following is obviously a case of poor "reasoning":
"You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler Joseph Stalin and Mussolini all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it."
In other words, "A judgmental kind of guy like Vidhyashankar"(whose only purported task here is to excite students and maybe dole his email ID ...no joking again) says this and thus dont fall for it.
Hey but wait, Im not Adolf Hitler guy...yeah he was my backyard mate and we played hide n seek in kindergarter but that does not make us buddy-buddy....boooooohooooo!
B. Appeal to popular emotions:Most common tool expressed by the "parent" in the Parent-adult-child emotional tapes of Transactional analysis as put forth by Eric Berne in his revolutionary book on psychology, "Im Ok you are Ok".
This is a parental dialogue(talking in psychological terms) and anyone, even a 5 year old kid can adopt this parental mode and chide his/her younger sibling.This has no age connection or social moorings(though comes from social moorings)
In this, the point showcased has not been cleverly mentioned but "throw-away" statements like --"You are judgmental"...and emotionalities by way of guilt..."Other people are judging you"(Let me help you mudsling me properly with a Biblical phrase: "Judge not for ye shall be judged"),etc.
This is emotional guilt tripping and side-tracking the main issue of relevance of teachers and their obnoxious behaviours in the class at the cost of students.
Judgementality is a good thing it is not entirely bad. Who said it is bad? It is a modern trend to say..."Hey dont be judgmental"..Auditor is called for and his views are to be based on his judgement, a judge is placed in a court to judge,you judge the distance when you have to turn your scooter or car to your coaching classes, you have also judged me as someone who scribes to dole out and maybe get student email IDs for popularity...are not all these judgements made, whether good or bad?
The human brain is wired to make judgments, however without the prop of logic it becomes a purely emotional affair and then many a times one gets hurt emotionally or maybe even physically.
I was not judging anyone, merely stating what I experienced.Nowhere have I stated the professor did not have knowledge or did not have the capacity to teach.Also it is not "someone" it is me, be direct, I can brutally be direct too!
3. Fourth Logical Fallacy: "Some people told, teachers are coming late. Even if they come late, they are solving only one problem and rest of the problem they ask students to solve at their home, teacher is taking 10 hours classes etc. I accept certain mistakes are being committed by certain teachers. Just because, one police official is doing something wrong, can you generalise every police is worst in this world?
"I will tell about the attitude of some students (not all). They have an idea of attending class only for one month. In that month class should be daily for only one hour. Saturday and Sunday should be holiday. Within one month all subjects should be completed, by explaining maximum theory, including 100 tests, solving 10,000 problems inside the class.
So dont generalise that all teachers are like this, that, X, Y, Z etc. Try to change your mistakes my dear friends."
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Fifth logical fallacy: 1.Sweeping generalization attribue and 2. Sweeping generalization
Good that you accept something atleast! Ha!
It was not "someone(told)" again who said that, it was me.Come on attack me dont attack any student here! They are gems and wannabe CAs!
A teacher who is to teach for a stipulated number of hours by taking lot of fees from an otherwise jittery CA student who gets afraid about the course and thinks about dropping the course at the first sneeze of fear, has an unbound duty to come regularly to the class and teach a certain number of problems and cover the portions diligentlly
(*whew* the above one came good and maybe adopted as the mission statement of any good teacher in this field)
Now, give me a break here: I never generalized any particular teacher, just one prof.That too it was not some stray incident but a general thing which he did which irritated many students.
Your logical fallacy here? : "Fallacy as to sweeping generalization attribute"
What the heck was that mouthful?
It means A says something(in this case Vidhysashankar is that A) and B refutes saying "A has said something only an isolated case/causa and that it cannot be applied to all situations" but not minding the fact that A's intentionwas not for generalization but for something as subjective as one's experience with someone.
I was not trying to make a anypoint anywhere towards generality, this is where you throw the "baby out with the baby water".
A Police official might be doing something wrong and it is the unbound duty of a good samaritan to report it to justice and not seek recourse in such fallacious reasonings like "Are all Police bad"? You would not say such things if the same Police had arrested you for no reason and beaten you up in a cellar! Then would you not make hue and cry, if given a chance or have the power? That single Policeman would bring a bad name to the whole Police force by virtue of people sterotyping in their mind even the smallest quirk in any organization,caste,community or religion.
I have been given both the chance in this forum and have the power of words to express "for" or "against" anyone or any situation for the good.I have also given a good comment on CA Pattabhiram sir and you have carefully chosen to ignore that and highlight "percieved defects"
There is another fallacy here which is "sweeping generalization" which is in direct contradiction and contrast to what you have said here.While you vociferously support teachers(because you belong to one such clan) and ask them not to generalize, you yourself commit a generalization in assuming "all students demand more than what they deserve".Isn't this a "sweeping generalization", sire, Pray tell me?(Though you cleverly add for nominality sake "not all students".If its not all students and just some as you hint, then why bother about that few dubious bunch of truants?)
Yes, there might be some students who out of not having time might put forth such "convinient requests".If the students as you portray are irrational,unreasonable and lethargic as you say and thus demand such assinine requests of accomodation as to time from teachers, then I think you are terribly wrong here. Students pay through the nose and have every right to demand to not only be treated properly but also be given value for what they have paid.
Mind you, you think you are doing a great favour to students by teaching them.But I tell you, I consider it a boon to shape and mould an ordinary student to an extraordinary humanbeing.Mnay many students in my classes for SAP and Options and futures(with a College here in USA) regularly contact me and send me wishes and very very kind words how I have influenced them for the better.But I do not accept their words of thanks, I say to them ,"I should thank you for showing me what a good teacher and a human being I' m and how better I can be, more than you thanking me for whatever little I have done."
"The giving hands should thank the receiving hands more than the receiving hands thanking the giving hands"--Mahaveer Jain
I think the perception and attitudes of teachers,especially in this field, should undergo a quantum-leap change for the better.Do not tie up students in useless and forced emotions.Emotions and gratitude is at the behest and whim of the receiver and not something forced by the giver.
The final fallacy: "To conclude, purpose of attending class is to reduce the burden of understanding the basis knowledge about the subject and some intricate issues only. Dont think you will become God by attending classes. Any finally, my humble request is "Dont judge your teachers and dont comment/criticise about everybody". Try to rectify certain mistakes done by you (students)."---
Appeal to emotions and guilt and usance of a red herring.
I have not "criticized all", I have also on the strain praised CAPattabhiraman,Which you have conviniently omitted to mention or consider.
No one here thinks that one would become "God" by attending classes.Infact, the teacher must make students such "Gods" and not shirk responsbility by saying such words.If "God" in your lingo means a student's aspiration to get a top rank, then you HAVE NO RIGHT to deny such an aspiration.
It is by criticality and "comments" that even philosphers like Socretes,Plato,Aristotle and every other philospher worth his salt made his "grey shine".
You constantly harp about students to recitify their mistakes and eventhough you accept nominally that teachers are doing wrong, you do not tend any paths for them to change.Why is this so? Precisely because you do not want to come out of your rut and comfort zone as a teacher.Im sure you are uncomfortable with what I have said and this is precisely my task to make people especially my Indian brothers and sisters really uncomfortable with the current status quo and progress for the good.
And yes, this is a "playground".It is only in the playground that children really flourish and grow, it is only in a playground that students express themselves fully in their thinking and other skills, it is only the playground type of teaching environment(Montessori and other types of education) that children realize their capabilities and it is in this type of a playground that "Vidhyashankar" would like to frolick have fun, make faces,show two fingers at everyone and educate.
Please do not mind my "at-times" harsh words and kindly excuse me sir.(I say this from my heart and not like a formality; for you have boldly opposed my posting whatever might be your "defects of argument" and have given me a chance to scribe something for today, constructively, for students and made my day! And hey! Im not giving my email to you,dont worry! Hahaha!)
Im both a CA member and a student and never proffer any airs of being a "Teacher","Preacher", whatever!
Aye! Aye! Sirji!
"Vidhyashankar"
P.S. Also, Iam well aware that you are a teacher of the Sreeram Coaching point in Cochin which has been commented upon unfavourably here by not only me an outsider but by students themselves, so I understand your loyalty to your organisation and Mr.L.Muralidharan.
CAclubindia
